Neck Tension and case lube, plus Nosler brass pt 3

[Koda]

I learned a lesson in neck tension and case lube.
Been using Hornady One Shot for case lube and never had a problem until this past week I loaded a test ladder of 223 Rem and noticed a loose bullet after seating. Checking things out... I was able to wiggle several bullets after some minor effort. WTH.
Cleaned my seating die, test, same results but actually worse... very loose bullet.
Baffled. Stumped.... I did not get to the range last weekend, everything went on hold.
After sleeping on it and letting my imagination recharge I let my over analytical brain go to town... Tested tonight a few sample cases with no case lube left inside the neck and huge difference...

But here's where the "Nosler pt3" beings. Some here might recall my saga with using Nosler 223 brass and it cracking. Stubborn and frugal I continued testing the second lot I purchased, a sealed bag of 100pcs purchased after the first one. I had ran 2 different initial ladder tests testing 2 different powders in the "new" bag of Nosler brass and no brass failures. I'm guessing that the brass cracking issue now is limited to the first purchase and was a bad lot number of brass (this saga goes back into last summer). Well that mystery solved I was somewhat excited to be able to continue to use Nosler brass for my project which brings me to this weeks neck tension failure.....

So back to this weeks dilemma the next question was how to fix the weak neck tension. I was getting about .002" neck tension with the Nosler brass and the Hammer Hunter bullets I'm using but even with assuring a dry inside neck with zero case lube I could still get movement from cycling in the AR, the inertia would move the bullet forward, and thus loosen the tension I could after a few cycles wiggle the bullet again.
This problem comes down to two things, the greatly reduced bearing surface of the Hammer bullets. This is not a defect but actually a design intent of Hammers and so while this is a factor to consider its not a gamestopper. So then what to do..., I removed the expander from my sizing die, this gave me about .009" neck tension. Made a noticeable difference but after a few cycles thru the action, loose bullets. At this point I'm in disbelief again how the greatly increased tension could still fail.

I decide to test the supply of used Federal brass I have. Normal sizing (with expander) I get about .002" neck tension but seating the Hammer bullet is very noticeably more resistance with a normal sized Federal neck than even the modified Nosler sized neck. Cycling tests showed inertia movement and sore fingers trying to get the bullet to wiggle. Inertia movement was small. This is an improvement worth pursuing instead of the Nosler brass.

I broke out the Lee FCD and made another dummy round with Federal brass, normal sized, + light crimp. Zero movement after 5 cycles thru the AR. No inertia drift and no movement by hand. I think this is my new method, though it means I have to start over with my previous pressure ladders.

Nosler brass "strike 3". Im contemplating if using a crimp to hold the Nosler neck tension will be effective but its late and Im tired of testing. Im wondering if Redding makes different size expanders....

So if you've made it this far my question is if its ok to size brass without case lube in the neck area? Whats your process for assuring a clean inside neck surface?

(fed brass, 60gHammer Hunter, light crimp)

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[Local Loader]

I can't say that I've had trouble with the oneshot lube being in the neck but I have experienced exactly what you're talking about.
I know you said you tested seating it but did you check the wall thickness of the necks? I had this happen on fed 30-06 brass(I'll have to check to be sure) , I racked my head trying to figure it out. Finally I decided to measure everything and found the neck was a little on the thin side but still good. I measured the bullet after and I did find a few that were under listed size.
So it could be that you are having both things happen just but a fluke chance at the same time.
Not sure if this helps you or not but hope it does. I did also start using a FCD for my 223/5.56 to avoid that problem, didn't have but maybe 4 out of 700 that would wiggle but never came out.
As for sizing bottle necks workout lube, I don't know that I'd do it. As for clean inside neck area I'd just use a .22 cal brush on a drill of some pipe cleaner if you feel like it. As for adding the crimp, I haven't seen/felt much of a difference really than without it, but that could just be me, result may vary.

 

[P7M13]

I admire your stubbornness to stick with the Nosler brass. Dang, dude!
If the necks aren't holding tension, I'd say they have a metallurgy problem.

I use 50:50 coconut oil and IPA for lube.
I do not use lube inside the case neck, but I do clean the inside of my die and every 30 or so cases, wipe a thin film of lube on the expander ball with a cotton swab.

 

[Member 34319]

I've learned over the years just to crimp for semi auto loads. I've noticed little sacrifice in precision is worth securing the bullet from encasing itself and causing a kaboom.

 

[ron]

This problem comes down to two things, the greatly reduced bearing surface of the Hammer bullets.

I have no experience with Hammer bullets but the design seems to be a problem. I have been reloading
Sierra, Hornady, Speer and Midway Blems with no problems with neck tenson. I do not crimp any 223
loads and you cannot push the loaded bullet in. Fired exclusively in an ARs.

So if you've made it this far my question is if its ok to size brass without case lube in the neck area? Whats your process for assuring a clean inside neck surface?

No you must use case lube on bottle neck cases. Hornady one shot you have to be careful to coat each one.
I have had problems with the Hornady one shot with an occasional stuck case!! Dillon case lube works mo
better. I use this home made Lanolin and alcohol it duplicates the Dillon lube. Amazon sells a complete
package. Make sure you have a stuck case remover.

Make Your Own Case Lube – Ultimate Reloader

ultimatereloader.com

Amazon.com

I have never used Nosler brass. Winchester brass gives me good accuracy sub 1/2 MOA. LC brass works
good too. Some good 223 load info.

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[Member 34319]

Koda, is your crimp die taper? Looks that way.

Try a clamping crimp die.

 

[Koda]

I know you said you tested seating it but did you check the wall thickness of the necks? I had this happen on fed 30-06 brass(I'll have to check to be sure) , I racked my head trying to figure it out. Finally I decided to measure everything and found the neck was a little on the thin side but still good. I measured the bullet after and I did find a few that were under listed size.
So it could be that you are having both things happen just but a fluke chance at the same time.

I tried to measue the wall thickness but 223 is so small and my calipers are 12" size (my 6" is out of batteries) its difficult. I came up with the Nosler brass at .012" (im at work and going off memory), i do know the federal brass is at least .001" thicker.
The Hammer bullets measure perfect, .22435" with a mic. The thing about hammers is their entire bearing surface is made up of rounded ribs so neck contact is greatly reduced from a traditional bullet. This is definitely a factor to adjust for but ive never heard of it being a problem on its own.

 

[Stomper]

I find that 800mg of ibuprofen helps deal with too much neck tension.

 

[Koda]

Koda, is your crimp die taper? Looks that way.

Try a clamping crimp die.

its a Lee Factory Crimp Die.
Im uncertain what type it is and the pic isnt a good example cause i trimmed the brass so the crimp would squeeze into the middle of the bullets driveband valley, which is preferred with Hammer reloaders.

 

[Koda]

I have no experience with Hammer bullets but the design seems to be a problem. I have been reloading
Sierra, Hornady, Speer and Midway Blems with no problems with neck tenson. I do not crimp any 223
loads and you cannot push the loaded bullet in. Fired exclusively in an ARs.

lots of people use Hammers in ARs or semis. the bullet design isnt an issue.

 

[Koda]

I've learned over the years just to crimp for semi auto loads. I've noticed little sacrifice in precision is worth securing the bullet from encasing itself and causing a kaboom.

somewhere in here around last summer i think i asked about crimping for semis and my lever and several responses were its generally not needed so I went down that path.
my lever gun uses Hammers now and I hunted over 15days last fall with zero movement (i was measuring each day) and was impressed. my technique for those became the same but i think cycling the semi auto is too much inertia force and if its a weak neck tension it moves.

 

[Koda]

I admire your stubbornness to stick with the Nosler brass. Dang, dude!
If the necks aren't holding tension, I'd say they have a metallurgy problem.

yeah, i paid for them and am frugal. i just want predator hunting load for my AR so I want a brass source thats reliable to buy again and Nosler seems to have kept better supply thru this crunch but ive lost faith in their quality.

 

[Koda]

Does anyone know if Redding makes different sizes expanders?

I dont think I want to completely remove it but wouldnt mind adding a couple thou.

 

[arrowshooter]

To answer your first question, I use the pad/oil lube method, then I'll dip the necks in a little jar with tiny ceramic beads and powdered graphite as needed. For instance, 8MM Mauser needs to be dipped each time and .223 about every 5th case. Everything goes back in the walnut afterward to clean it up.

I terms of your neck tension measurement, have you measured the necks of the rounds with the bullets that you can wiggle back out? Just curious if the brass is actually expanding back out. I have never paid no never mind to neck tension until now since I am setting up for 20 Practical and there is a lot to digest about final neck size. This thread is also part of my learning curve, thanks.

As for crimping, "My name is Arrowshooter and I am a Crimper". When I first started reloading it was with .223 for an AR and I picked up the Lee FCD for those duties. After few thousand rounds I was comfortable enough that I jumped into the 30.06. Worked up a couple of ladders and ended up with a good consistent MOA load, but I thought I could do better so I picked up a crimp die cuz I could. With a Medium crimp the old girl (1936 Win Model 54) met sub MOA (plus more FPS) and never looked back. I have crimped everything since then (not pistol).

Expanders, You might want to look into using an Expander Mandrel setup. This is something I just recently read about so I can't Holiday Inn Express much about it, but could be worth a try for you.

 

[Koda]

To answer your first question, I use the pad/oil lube method, then I'll dip the necks in a little jar with tiny ceramic beads and powdered graphite as needed. For instance, 8MM Mauser needs to be dipped each time and .223 about every 5th case. Everything goes back in the walnut afterward to clean it up.

I terms of your neck tension measurement, have you measured the necks of the rounds with the bullets that you can wiggle back out? Just curious if the brass is actually expanding back out. I have never paid no never mind to neck tension until now since I am setting up for 20 Practical and there is a lot to digest about final neck size. This thread is also part of my learning curve, thanks.

As for crimping, "My name is Arrowshooter and I am a Crimper". When I first started reloading it was with .223 for an AR and I picked up the Lee FCD for those duties. After few thousand rounds I was comfortable enough that I jumped into the 30.06. Worked up a couple of ladders and ended up with a good consistent MOA load, but I thought I could do better so I picked up a crimp die cuz I could. With a Medium crimp the old girl (1936 Win Model 54) met sub MOA (plus more FPS) and never looked back. I have crimped everything since then (not pistol).

Expanders, You might want to look into using an Expander Mandrel setup. This is something I just recently read about so I can't Holiday Inn Express much about it, but could be worth a try for you.

Yes, ive measured the necks and they are properly expanding with the inserted bullet. Its the excessive case lube and Noslers thin wall and or softer brass thats causing the bullets to not stay.

Ive heard of people improving group size from crimping, but i havent tried it yet. It looks like i will be working a crimp into my 223 handload recipe...

 

[P7M13]

Suggestion:
Don't go down the expander button rabbit hole.
Buy five or ten boxes of Norma .223 ammunition.
It will probably cost you less than the equivalent quantity of Nosler brass.
Get a Lee FCD and neck sizer die for .223
Happy reloading & shooting.

 

[Caveman Jim]

For bottleneck cases one must use lube, binside the neck and out. The key is to clean the case thoroughly before even thinking of loading.
Years ago as a hew Reloader I used the RCBS pad & lube, I would invert the case, slide the mouth across pad to get lube in the necks.
I retrieved them from the corncob media after a half hour and they looked like chia-pets…

 

[Koda]

For bottleneck cases one must use lube, binside the neck and out. The key is to clean the case thoroughly before even thinking of loading.

Lesson learned here. This makes me wonder if my ES and DS will improve with cleaned necks having more consistent neck tension.

I sonic clean before sizing, so this means I will need to sonic clean again after sizing and trimming. Im not liking the idea of adding another step but obviously I need perfectly clean cases before seating.

 

[Caveman Jim]

Lesson learned here. This makes me wonder if my ES and DS will improve with cleaned necks having more consistent neck tension.

I sonic clean before sizing, so this means I will need to sonic clean again after sizing and trimming. Im not liking the idea of adding another step but obviously I need perfectly clean cases before seating.

It's all part of the process, if you don't follow it you're gonna wind up with problems like you're having.

 

[gmerkt]

I read the original post re. neck cracking problems with the Nosler brass with interest.

My experience of a few decades of loading .223 has been pretty free of neck tension issues with all kinds of bullets, but never with Hammer bullets, that's outside my experience.

I agree that material thickness of the brass in the neck can be an issue, I've seen it with other sizes of cartridges. Both pistol and rifle. The inside of the die is a fixed size, so if the brass being sized is thinner, then it compresses to a larger inside diameter size. Which may or may not be less than, equal to, or greater than the expander ball. This is especially true of .223 brass that has been resized, as it thins out and grows in length with every firing because it's pretty thin to begin with. But this doesn't explain the problems you are encountering with the new Nosler brass.

I clean the inside of necks with a nylon bore brush. The reduction of friction as against an uncleaned neck is noticeable. If you're ever pulled bullets that were seated into dirty necks, you may have noticed that they are scored or striated from abrasive grit in the neck. I don't have any science that demonstrates this detracts from accuracy but it can't do that process any good, I'd think.

I'm still lubing the outside of cases on an RCBS lube pad, then I lube inside the necks with a Q tip.

The other thing about not lubing necks in rifle cases is stretching. When the expander ball is pulled out of an unlubed neck, some stretching of the material is apt to take place. Which hastens the need to trim and of course thins out the material. Again, particularly noticeable with .223 cases.

The ribbed surface on the shank of the Hammer bullets would definitely present less bearing surface inside the case neck. And therefore less tension. Especially with the .223 Rem., which doesn't have all that long of a neck. I'm thinking if your brass is even a little bit thin, you might have issues with neck tension using this bullet. Strangely enough, some of the thickest .223 brass I've encountered was among the off-brands. When I've seen these, I've thought, "Oh, this is because they are using softer brass which results in greater thickness."

Some USGI .30 Ball (.30-06 and 7.62m NATO) ammo had the bullets cemented in place with a thin asphalt compound. That might be a possibility, but using some of that primer sealing compound that comes in a little bottle like fingernail varnish. Usually blue. Here is one thread on the subject at another forum:

450Bushmaster.net • View topic - Bullet/Case Sealant - Asphaltum - Gum

Using the Lee Rifle FCD is the easy solution, just crank it down and crush the mouth into the bullet, that results in plenty of positive tension. And that's the working principle of the Lee FCD.