Neck Tension and case lube, plus Nosler brass pt 3

[Koda]

@gmerkt lots of good info in your comment. All this is a learning curve for me, being still fairly new to reloading. As a result I'm adjusting my reloading process to include another cleaning step after I size and trim/deburr the cases. I don't really like adding another step to my process but all my loads are for hunting and very small quantity so it isn't adding too much more.
I have to start load dev completely over so Im going to seat the bullet to crimp in the second Hammer PDR band "valley", experimenting I will have to trim my brass to 1.735" to get this. I dont like trimming that short, but these are low volume hunting rounds and seating further out is about .060" more space in the case for powder so maybe another 50fps. Crimping will be a new process for me but experimenting and testing an unchared round shows a very solid seating over 5 cycles thru the AR with zero movement in inertia drift or wiggle or rotation.
Lastly, I will be using my supply of Federal brass and abandoning the Nosler brass.

Picture of my test round after 5 cycles: A nice crimp rolling into the center of the drive band valley rolling nicely over the top of the second drive band. Case trim needed to be 1.735" for this.



and as a side topic, now I know what the black stuff is on a factory 556 load I randomly pulled apart to see. Bullet sealer. An option but I dont think I want to go down this path.

 

[thorborg]

I rarely use neck lube. When withdrawal of the expander ball starts feeling gritty or popping on some brass, or ones being radically modified, I'll use some, but even then applied scantily to the expander ball with a cotton swab, not the neck itself. Usually this works for five to eight cases, then I apply a tiny bit more. I tried various lubes but found Imperial Dry Neck lube worked best for me. if you are cranking them out on a progressive then best to only use carbide stuff and lubes shouldn't be an issue.
I don't recall ever having neck tension issues other than a few isolated ones, after I switched to the dry lube using light application.
However, a long time ago, I changed my brass processing which is too slow and involved for most, but all but eliminated any possible errant lube issues.
I deprime first, ( not using my die) then liquid pin clean before sizing. After sizing, walnut shell and rouge polish even if just bagged up for future use..
The pin cleaning works great for the primer hole and inside the shell, but I don't like the outside being scratched up. Oh Its Bright for sure, but not shiny, not as shiny as I want it. Once pin cleaned it can never be polished enough for me without removal of much metal, but I've learned to accept the better, but still half assed shine I get from the additional rouge polish.
Besides looking better, (to me) I found with the polishing, the shiner I can get it, the slower the brass tarnishes, giving it a longer shelf life before dulling. Before I started Pin cleaning, I could produce mirror finish and have decades old brass still shiny.
Any residual rouge in the neck has never affected neck tension unless maybe it was to increase it minutely.
For Semi auto's, I would not rely on tension alone to keep things in place, giving it a light taper squeeze.

I'm not sure why all the many little cannelures on the hammer bullet, but I'm not likening them. I'm not even fond of a single crimp ring, they never seem to be in the right place for me.
If you custom fit things to specific chambers, or shoot different cartridges that can use the same bullet, you must know what I mean.

 

[Koda]

I'm not sure why all the many little cannelures on the hammer bullet, but I'm not likening them. I'm not even fond of a single crimp ring, they never seem to be in the right place for me.

They arent traditional cannelures, they are friction rings to displace the solid copper and reduce friction down the bore. Hammer shooters typically get 50 to 100fps faster velocities than their similar cup and core in the same weight. If you crimp them you just pick the best valley to crimp into, Hammers are accurate with any seating depth so that doesnt matter, just pick the seating depth that gives the most velocity.

 

[Local Loader]

So not sure why this didn't dawn on me sooner but have you checked what the big bullet say to do for their solid copper that have the rings, i.e. Barnes, Hornady and berger?

 

[Koda]

So not sure why this didn't dawn on me sooner but have you checked what the big bullet say to do for their solid copper that have the rings, i.e. Barnes, Hornady and berger?

Ive only loaded with Barnes and Hammer. Hammer is very responsive with questions and calls but its well known to crimp in the "valley" of their grooves. If needed.

 

[Certaindeaf]

This ain't California yet so regular bullets for me.







Lol

 

[Koda]

This ain't California yet so regular bullets for me.







Lol

were so far behind the Iron Curtain already enjoy your regular bullets while you can...

 

[gmerkt]

Lastly, I will be using my supply of Federal brass and abandoning the Nosler brass.

Oh no, where is the thrift?? Save them for use with cup and core bullets.

I dont like trimming that short

Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do, within reason. Once in a while, I've had to trim cases a bit short to get bullet relationship to the leade right.

and as a side topic, now I know what the black stuff is on a factory 556 load I randomly pulled apart to see. Bullet sealer. An option but I dont think I want to go down this path.

That asphaltum lacquer is pretty rugged stuff. I think the commercial primer sealer for reloaders would be easier to use.

I'm not sure why all the many little cannelures on the hammer bullet, but I'm not likening them. I'm not even fond of a single crimp ring,

I've noticed that some form of this is pretty common on contemporary solid copper bullets. The Hammer bullets just have the most radical iteration of it, with the extra velocity angle as the stated reason. But even the less fancy solids have "extra" grooves to reduce friction of the solid material used.

Then there was this one:

Berger Bullets Introduces Revolutionary Sonic Ripple Bullet « Daily Bulletin

At the end of this year, Berger Bullets plans to introduce a new projectile that may truly be the most revolutionary bullet design since the advent of jacketed spitzers in the late 19th Century. Berger's new bullet is unlike anything we have ever seen before. It features concentric curved...

bulletin.accurateshooter.com

Did these ever reach retail?

And before that, the old Herter's "Wasp Waisted" bullet:

https://www.handloadermagazine.com/practical-handloading-5

Many years ago, I came across some of the Herter's Wasp Waisted bullets. I couldn't resist loading up and firing them off. I don't remember anything spectacular one way or the other with them but then did hit the target aimed at.

 

[Koda]

Oh no, where is the thrift?? Save them for use with cup and core bullets.

Thats my thought as I have some 55gFMJ to play with though outside of a hunting load I dont really have an interest in handloading target ammo but it doesnt hurt to have extra components to experiment with.

Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do, within reason. Once in a while, I've had to trim cases a bit short to get bullet relationship to the leade right.

As long as accuracy is good I think this will work out as a hunting load, if brass life is reduced from trimming shorter so be it, I wont be target shooting with these.

I've noticed that some form of this is pretty common on contemporary solid copper bullets. The Hammer bullets just have the most radical iteration of it, with the extra velocity angle as the stated reason. But even the less fancy solids have "extra" grooves to reduce friction of the solid material used.

Im slowly learning how to get the velocity, Hammer has been helpful with advice. My 280AI is getting over 3100fps/ 140g Hammer, my 3030 is getting 2400fps/ 143g Hammer, but Hammer is suggesting I seat further out where I started fully seated with the idea of slowly working towards the lands. I tested this in my 280 and got up to 3200fps seated to the next drive band before hitting pressure. Hammer says I can seat even further out.

My understanding is that the successful monos are using drive bands to displace copper to reduce fouling. IIRC the original Barnes X bullets led the way on this as originally they had copper fouling issues so now they have drive bands and are one of the best monos for hunting. There's still some brands without drive bands like Nosler monos, not certain if they have a different metallurgy or how well they work. My primary reason for switching to monos is, from what im reading in reviews, the Barnes and Hammers are exceeding terminal performance of traditional cup and cores with virtually no weight loss or with petal shedding technology like the Hammers create additional (smaller) wound channels while the base acts like a wad cutter for deep penetration. I have yet to use a Hammer on game but took a doe last year with a Barnes handload in my 223 AR and that tiny pill left a devastating wound channel with no fragmentation.

 

[gmerkt]

My primary reason for switching to monos

... and it will be good to be ready for the lead in bullets ban that is no doubt coming some day.

 

[gmerkt]

My understanding is that the successful monos are using drive bands to displace copper to reduce fouling.

I'm sure there is something to this. BUT: Isn't increased copper fouling a function of increased friction? Noting that some load data for copper bullets calls for lower charges than for similar weight cup and core bullets tells me there are some considerations as to pressure. Increased friction, increased pressure.

I'm a complete neophyte at loading solid copper bullets. I have some .308 sizes in a couple of different weights, and some .224's. I have yet to load any of the .308's; I've loaded but not fired some of the .224's. Oh, also some copper solid 9mm. So I'm still in the learning phase myself. But I'm gonna keep shooting bullets with lead in them for the time being. I have done some work with solid zinc bullets in .41 Mag. and 10mm Auto, also I've loaded and fired a couple of different kinds of frangible (non lead) bullets in .223 Rem. And 9mm. So I'm getting ready.

 

[Koda]

... and it will be good to be ready for the lead in bullets ban that is no doubt coming some day.

Thats one of my other reasons. Regardless of how I feel about it its inevitable. When I decided to learn to handload my intent was to use a Partition but getting into the learning curve and reading about monos terminal performance I decided I didnt want to someday have to start over with a load development. Personally Id rather be out hiking, skiing, fishing, scouting, predator hunting or whatever else fun... but learning this will be worth it in the long run. I just want one go to load for each hunting rifle and no longer be dependant on political supply chain issues buying factory ammo anymore.

 

[Koda]

I'm sure there is something to this. BUT: Isn't increased copper fouling a function of increased friction? Noting that some load data for copper bullets calls for lower charges than for similar weight cup and core bullets tells me there are some considerations as to pressure. Increased friction, increased pressure.

My guess is reducing fouling is also reducing friction. But that is the part that I get lost and is over my head. What published load data there is seems limited to mostly Barnes X and I agree doesn't line up with similar weight cup and cores. There's got to a pressure difference regardless of drive band technology.

Add to that no published load data for any Hammer bullet and knowing they also dont line up with conventional load data, gave me pause as a beginner but Hammer is very helpful.