Mountain Lion Defensive Pistol

[Ura-Ki]

This last page has boiled it down better then most of the rest put together. I have had the unfortunate opportunity of having to stop a big cat from chewin my brother, and his Beretta 92 with 147 gr didn't even faze that cat, it took a .308 to the side of the head at point blank range to end it! I have also stopped two big browns, one was hit 4 times with a 7 mm Rem ultra mag, and that one took three more from my .375 to stop, the second was hit with three .338 win mag, and it took three more .45/70!!! I don't think I could have stopped any of those animals with a pistol, especially those two browns, but when I have no choice, it's a 10 mm loaded with 220 gr solids @ 1040fps and hope 17 rounds will do the job! Before that it was a .44 mag loaded with 270 gr solids at 970 fps and you better hope at least one finds ether the boiler room, or blows out a bone, or that big bruin is gonna kill you before you can reload. I do like the .357 mag for ONE very important reason, bone smashing power, one of the few mid bore that can crack a Browns skull

 

[etrain16]

This last page has boiled it down better then most of the rest put together. I have had the unfortunate opportunity of having to stop a big cat from chewin my brother, and his Beretta 92 with 147 gr didn't even faze that cat, it took a .308 to the side of the head at point blank range to end it! I have also stopped two big browns, one was hit 4 times with a 7 mm Rem ultra mag, and that one took three more from my .375 to stop, the second was hit with three .338 win mag, and it took three more .45/70!!! I don't think I could have stopped any of those animals with a pistol, especially those two browns, but when I have no choice, it's a 10 mm loaded with 220 gr solids @ 1040fps and hope 17 rounds will do the job! Before that it was a .44 mag loaded with 270 gr solids at 970 fps and you better hope at least one finds ether the boiler room, or blows out a bone, or that big bruin is gonna kill you before you can reload. I do like the .357 mag for ONE very important reason, bone smashing power, one of the few mid bore that can crack a Browns skull

Wow, that's some crazy sh!t you've had to deal with! Was your brother okay??

For handguns for protection in the woods, I have two preferred choices - 10mm or .357, sounds like either is a decent choice.

I'm reminded of this video from 3 years ago - no doubt some of you remember it - the snowmobile rider that was attacked by a moose and shot it with a Glock (supposedly a G20, having a hard time verifying that). Anyway, whether you agree with his decision to move forward instead of retreat, that's a different debate for a different thread, but at least for this discussion, you can see that a handgun is capable of dropping a large animal. Of course shot placement and number of shots is important. I thought it was interesting that he had to chamber a round - I would be carrying in a proper retention holster, with a round in the chamber:

 

[smoothbore]

The 45 will do the job if the shot is placed in the spot. I would prefer Ball ammo out of the big lumbering round to get good penetration.

Effective Game Killing





here's some info gleaned from Siberian bear hunt guides, for what it's worth:

7.62x25 Tokarev (30 well documented cases):

21 case where shooting starded from 2 meters: 14 people killed the bear, no injuries, 4 got some injury, 3 died.

9 cases where people shot within 2 meters: 3 died, 2 injured, 4 killed the bear without injury.

The biggest bear killed with 7.62x25 was over 630 pounds...


7.62 Nagant (revolver) - 38 well documented cases:

30 started shooting from at least 2 meters: 16 killed the bear without injury, 6 got injury, 8 dead.

8 started shooting withing 2 meters: 2 dead, 4 injured, 2 killed the bear without injury.

I should mension that bullet couldn't go through the head and the most effective area was neck and chest. The biggest bear killed was over 480 pounds.


9x18 Makarov (28 well documented cases where 2 cases are from full auto):

2 cases with <broken link removed> - no injuries, bear was dead right away.

19 cases from 2 meters: 10 had no injuries, 5 had some injuries, 4 dead.
7 within 2 meters: 3 no injuries, 2 had some injuries, 2 are dead.

Biggest bear = over 3 pounds. 9x18 was more effective than Nagant round, but not as good as Tokarev.


7.65 Browning (17 well documented cases)

11 cases from 2 meters: 4 had no injuries, 3 had injuries, 4 were dead.

6 cases within 2 meters: 2 no injuries, 2 had injuries, 2 were dead.

I should mention that 7.62 has been improved lately (since late 70s), but it sucks in my opinion.

9x19 Luger (17 cases):

10 cases from 2 meters: 7 no injuries, 2 had some injuries, 1 was dead.

7 cases within 2 meters: 3 no injuries, 2 had some injuries, 2 were dead.

9x19 was effective as 7.62 TT, but most ammo is improved today, so it should be more effective.

.25 ACP (12 cases):

8 cases from 2 meters - 3 had no injuries, 1 was injuried, 4 were dead.

4 cases within 2 meters - 1 was injuried, 3 dead.

.25 ACP sucks!


.45 ACP (only 9 cases - lend-lease wasn't so great as textbooks tell you)

7 cases from 2 meters: 6 had no injuries, 1 was injuried, nobody was dead.
2 cases within 2 meters: 1 had no injuries, 1 was injuried.


stats cover an 80 year period


obviously, something is better than nothing.

 

[Misteramax]

Best couple post on this page. I'll be serious for a bit...first, ura-ki, I'm glad you were able to stop the cat. I have almost been the subject of a meal more than once. Each time my hearing and alternate trail choice helped me. I can't comprehend standing in front of a brown bear of any type. I'm cool with black bears. I have had them in camp at night and only a 45 acp on hand. Ironically...as some 45 jokes have been made. It was before I had my Redhawk. Still...I don't worry. If I did the type of camping and hiking I do here in Montana or Alaska...I would have been buying guns a lot differently...

Currently my go to woods guns are my Redhawk and my 8mm Mauser. Last time I did some testing was with 170 grain Winchester soft points. As odd as it sounds I would probably use them on a big cat. They are so bad they don't hold together on impact and grenade horribly. Lmao. But are accurate.

 

[mobil890]

I would use a 270 Winchester; I know for sure it will stop one. They aren't all nice and cuddly as a house cat.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I would use a 270 Winchester; I know for sure it will stop one. They aren't all nice and cuddly as a house cat.

View attachment 361074

Not really a defensive pistol..

 

[mobil890]

Yep your right. I would only use a pistol to scare it off. I hip shot this one 15 yards away and I'm glad I had the rifle because it dropped him in his tracks.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Yep your right. I would only use a pistol to scare it off. I hip shot this one 15 yards away and I'm glad I had the rifle because it dropped him in his tracks.

Well there ya go. I like to be armed all the time. Rifles are out for the most part.

 

[mobil890]

Someone once told me only use your pistol when your rifle is empty

 

[Ura-Ki]

Brother will never have much grip strength in his left hand from all the damage done, and he has a slight limp from getting bit and shook severely! That was one of the worst things I have ever seen happen to some one, and I couldn't get a clear shot until my bro got to his pistol and opened up on that cat, while I am face down in the dirt avoiding incoming from a stray. I managed to get to one knee and took a shot from maybe 15 feet away! NO, I will not post the pictures, way to graphic even for such a hardy bunch as you folks!

 

[Certaindeaf]

Someone once told me only use your pistol when your rifle is empty

My rifle is never empty. It's never on me either though.. same with everyone else. And a lot of "someones" have never taught themselves the first thing about handgun proficiency.

 

[salmonriverjohn]

@Ura-Ki, thank you very much for sharing, truly a harrowing situation and serious food for thought.

 

[Ura-Ki]

Some observations need to be shared! A pistol and other protective devices like spray and such are only effective up close and personal with the predators, and as such the effectiveness of all that is questionable, especially a large and dangerous predator! Bears are not likely to charge unless scared or provoked, or challenged, where as the Cats are the hunter actively seeking to take you, so they present the bigger problem! Even though I carry a semi auto rifle, and I rely on it firstly, it's likely to still be over my shoulder when something bad happens and it is ether the spray ( which is risky to me) or the pistol, and lastly a Bowie knife! As my brother and I found out, a big cat in kill mode isn't going to stop until the trauma applied to the cat overwhelms its bodies ability to continue to fight! And as rare as they are, Wolves are even worse!
A big shout out to the very fine folks at the Portland Air National Guard for responding and doing what they do best, and that brings up the last observation, reliable communications. If I hadn't had a Sat phone and GPS to give the exact location, this could have been much worse. Also having a good first aid kit and knowing how to treat large bleeds and shock!

Like i say, in the woods, man is not the Apex Predator, plan and equip accordingly!

 

[jsparks747]

Bring it.
M134 Minigun (.308)

Lahti anti-tank gun (20mm)

Lahti ammo (20mm)

 

[smoothbore]

Bring it.
M134 Minigun (.308)
View attachment 361123
Lahti anti-tank gun (20mm)
View attachment 361125
Lahti ammo (20mm)
View attachment 361124

Well there you go!!! Cat or bear protection if there ever was. Do they make a hip or shoulder holster for one of those?

 

[The Heretic]

I would use a 270 Winchester; I know for sure it will stop one. They aren't all nice and cuddly as a house cat.

View attachment 361074

The ones in the wild are not.

But I have petted one kept as a pet. Just the same, she was very strong (even though not full grown) and she left a bruise on my arm.

 

[smoothbore]

On a serious note! As someone said,we are not the apex predator in the wild. As someone who has reached that age of bad eyes,bad hips,bad hearing I seldom go far alone in the woods when hunting. I have a hunting pard that is usually close by that is quite a bit younger. Still I do stalk hunt old logging roads in the same area we are hunting in alone. I keep a close watch on my back trail as well because I do think if I have an attack it will prob. come from behind. I try to keep my rifle in my hands most of the time. But just to be on the safe side I carry a very sharp fixed blade knife and my pistol on my side in easy reach. I don't fear a bear attack as much as a cougar.Usually if a bear see's you, it will turn tail and run.If you see a cougar, chances are he has seen you and has not run. Not good! Most of us that are in the woods often here in the NW have had encounters with Cougars.We just weren't aware of it.

I fear my Grandchildren will have another more fearsome predator to deal with while hunting in the future.
These Pizz poor excuses for game biologists will introduce and protect more Wolves into the NW. They already have a good start. We now have a breeding pair here in Southern Oregon.

 

[jsparks747]

Well there you go!!! Cat or bear protection if there ever was. Do they make a hip or shoulder holster for one of those?

I have no clue. The Barbie section at Toys-R-Us might have something small enough. Lol.

 

[djharteloo]

My cougar incident:

When I was 16, me and my best friend were deer hunting with two other buddies above the Washougal river back kind of behind dougan falls. We had gotten to where we were going to camp for the night and made a fire, while we waited for the other two to run back to town to grab a sleeping that they forgot. We were standing by the fire in a spot right below a 20ish foot tall cliff right above us and about 50 yards away.

We were playing with my buddy's brand new fancy surefire flashlight and he caught the eyes of something in the woods off above the cliff. We figured it was a racoon or something and continued setting up camp. About an hour later we were playing with that flashlight again and caught the eyes again, right on the edge of the cliff, right above us, 50 yards away. I grabbed the big spotlight out of my truck and clearly lit up a probably 140 pound cat right above us with its neck arched forward staring at us off the cliff. I grabbed my 30-30 and shot two rounds at it and it ran off back into the tree line.

The other two buddies showed up shortly after this and the 4 of us hiked up and around to where the cliff was and saw the cat tracks clearly going back and fourth like the animal was pacing. Scared the hell out of me. There was no blood or furr and I could see right where my bullets hit the ground.

I live just near the Fern Prairie store in Camas not far from the Washougal River or Livingston Mountain. We have found big cat tracks in our back field once now and my girlfriend saw one cross the road last spring in her headlights as she pulled into the driveway.

For a pistol in the woods, I currently carry a 10mm 1911 with 200gr Underwood hardcast and a magazine of 180gr Hornady XTP's. If I'm hiking, scouting, camping, etc, a CZ 527 carbine with some 150gr 7.62X39 soft points also comes with me.

 

[Flymph]

I once left a candy bar wrapper in my tent while at summer camp. I was trying to sleep that night when I heard something breathing loudly walked right up next to my tent. I heard this pacing about for a minute or two until I felt the tent leaning in on my foot. I could tell it was a bear trying to smell around in my tent so after a few good sniffs I gave what I imagine to be the snout a light tap back with my foot. Some more pacing and breathing and then it just left.

I'm sure a cougar would have already been in the tent with me...

NEVER LEAVE CANDY BAR WRAPPERS IN YOUR TENT, and pack something under the pillow.