Mountain Lion Defensive Pistol

[SrMachoSolo]

I came into this thread knowing nothing about cougars. After reading through this whole thing(mostly) I've come to one conclusion. What it takes to kill a cougar up in a tree or off in the distance is different than what it might take to kill one in attack mode. Not only because of its adrenaline but also because of yours. So, go big or go home

40+ pages... will we ever know if @Certaindeaf has enough firepower? What caliber did he go with? Lol

I do know that I am planning to build a 10mm now, parts are on order... and the hunt for the harder to find parts is on.

-Robert

 

[Certaindeaf]

40+ pages... will we ever know if @Certaindeaf has enough firepower? What caliber did he go with? Lol

I do know that I am planning to build a 10mm now, parts are on order... and the hunt for the harder to find parts is on.

-Robert

Yea, I posed the hypothetical to encourage discussion, ie clickbait.
It worked, according to the page count.
I've been comfortably prowling the woods with proper handguns for a ways.

Edit to add, I've thought a few time on modifying my OP as it can easily be construed as seeking personal advice and a lot of responses are derailed a bit because of it. My ego allows me to endure being thought a clueless noob for the sake of the discussion as I believe many ARE clueless noobs, just allowing the thread to go where it goes with my allowing that supposition.
On the other hand, I'll probably get tired if it and rejigger the OP in the long run. We'll see.

 

[sobo]

Yea, I posed the hypothetical to encourage discussion, ie clickbait.
It worked, according to the page count.

We didn't follow your own advice. We didn't "didn't click"...

 

[OldBroad44]

What it takes to kill a cougar or anything else up a tree or at a distance is pretty much the same as what it takes to kill it if it is attacking. The issue is how long it takes the critter to die and how much damage it is going to do you before it is dead. If its nearly or already on top of you, and takes even a second or two to die, it can seriously damage or kill you while dying.

The issue is, if something is attacking, is almost or already on you, you need not merely a kill, but instant incapacitation. And while many kinds of shots will kill an attacking animal, only a shot that seriously damages the brain or spine will cause instant incapacitation. The spine is smaller and harder to hit than the head. So when being attacked by a serious predator and defending yourself with a handgun, you need to shoot it in the head. NOT center mass or heart/lungs. Even deer with their hearts completely destroyed by a rifle bullet often run a hundred yards or more before dropping.

The conventional wisdom is that cougars are about as difficult to kill as humans. And this is consistent with the fact that their skulls are no heavier built, and are not sloped in a way that causes bullets to glance off. Conventional wisdom is that black bears shot in the head from the side, as in hunting treed bear, are also easy to kill. But shot in the head from the front are hard to kill because the bear skull has long, very thick, sloping bone that is difficult for jhp bullets in handgun calibers to penetrate and that tends to deflect roundish nosed bullets. And if a body shot is all you have, that works less well than for cougars or humans because black bear have thicker hides, more muscle, and heavier bone. This is why there are "bear loads" for self defense against bears, but nobody makes a "cougar load." Because if you are prepared for SD against humans you are also prepared for cougars. SD against cougars doesnt take anything special. But for black bears you need a bit more. Its interesting to see what HSM makes in bear loads for handguns: all hard cast wide flat nose bullets that are heavy for caliber, in these calibers only: 10 mm, .357 mag, .41 mag, .44 mag, .45 Colt, .454 Casual, .460, .500. Note that they don't include any 9mm bear loads, and if they thought it was a viable option they undoubtedly would given the popularity of 9mm. And no .40 or .45acp bear loads either.

If you are trying to stop an attack of a cougar or black bear with a body shot, though, lotsa luck. To get instant incacitation with a body shot in most cases you'll need a high power rifle.

 

[Certaindeaf]

.Even deer with their hearts completely destroyed by a rifle bullet often run a hundred yards or more before dropping..

Very true. However, I've heart shot deer and hogs with standard pressure 115gr 9mm hp's out of a 5" barrel and none of them went farther than 30 yards. I have a high degree of confidence in a good 115gr +P+ 9mm after seeing firsthand what a standard pressure load does to critters around 100-250 lbs.

If I'm in grizzly country, I'll pretty much just carry a 4" .44 magnum with heavy, hard cast by me, Keith type SWC's.

 

[The Heretic]

If you are trying to stop an attack of a cougar or black bear with a body shot, though, lotsa luck. To get instant incapacitation with a body shot in most cases you'll need a high power rifle.

I've not had the experience - hell, I've never even seen a bear or cougar in the wild, despite the fact that they are on my property. But I have read that with a brown bear, if it becomes aggressive and is charging (i.e., you decide to shoot it and you have the means) that you should try to stop its means of locomotion by breaking one front shoulder and then the other and then go for the kill shot. The stated reasoning is that it is hard to kill a brown bear and that they often do not know they are dead until after they have killed you - but you can try to prevent them from getting to you by removing/reducing their ability to move towards you, and that it is hard to get a head shot on any animal that is moving but a front shoulder shot is easier.

Something to think about.

 

[Rem725]

What it takes to kill a cougar or anything else up a tree or at a distance is pretty much the same as what it takes to kill it if it is attacking. The issue is how long it takes the critter to die and how much damage it is going to do you before it is dead. If its nearly or already on top of you, and takes even a second or two to die, it can seriously damage or kill you while dying.

The issue is, if something is attacking, is almost or already on you, you need not merely a kill, but instant incapacitation. And while many kinds of shots will kill an attacking animal, only a shot that seriously damages the brain or spine will cause instant incapacitation. The spine is smaller and harder to hit than the head. So when being attacked by a serious predator and defending yourself with a handgun, you need to shoot it in the head. NOT center mass or heart/lungs. Even deer with their hearts completely destroyed by a rifle bullet often run a hundred yards or more before dropping.

The conventional wisdom is that cougars are about as difficult to kill as humans. And this is consistent with the fact that their skulls are no heavier built, and are not sloped in a way that causes bullets to glance off. Conventional wisdom is that black bears shot in the head from the side, as in hunting treed bear, are also easy to kill. But shot in the head from the front are hard to kill because the bear skull has long, very thick, sloping bone that is difficult for jhp bullets in handgun calibers to penetrate and that tends to deflect roundish nosed bullets. And if a body shot is all you have, that works less well than for cougars or humans because black bear have thicker hides, more muscle, and heavier bone. This is why there are "bear loads" for self defense against bears, but nobody makes a "cougar load." Because if you are prepared for SD against humans you are also prepared for cougars. SD against cougars doesnt take anything special. But for black bears you need a bit more. Its interesting to see what HSM makes in bear loads for handguns: all hard cast wide flat nose bullets that are heavy for caliber, in these calibers only: 10 mm, .357 mag, .41 mag, .44 mag, .45 Colt, .454 Casual, .460, .500. Note that they don't include any 9mm bear loads, and if they thought it was a viable option they undoubtedly would given the popularity of 9mm. And no .40 or .45acp bear loads either.

If you are trying to stop an attack of a cougar or black bear with a body shot, though, lotsa luck. To get instant incacitation with a body shot in most cases you'll need a high power rifle.

Indeed hard headed bears. I witnesses a bear taking all 6 rounds from a 357 Ruger Blackhawk at point blank to the top of the bears head. By point blank, I mean inches away as the shooter backed up from the on coming bear that already had 3-4 rifle shots in him. This was in the Lake Fork Creek camp NE of Halfway.

 

[Neogeo]

410 revolver

 

[The Heretic]

410 revolver

Uh huh - as the absolute wrong thing to shoot a bear or cougar with? I agree.

 

[Graingodguy]

629 PC Take no chances.
Guy

 

[OldBroad44]

Indeed hard headed bears. I witnesses a bear taking all 6 rounds from a 357 Ruger Blackhawk at point blank to the top of the bears head. By point blank, I mean inches away as the shooter backed up from the on coming bear that already had 3-4 rifle shots in him. This was in the Lake Fork Creek camp NE of Halfway.

If the .357 Ruger Blackhawk was loaded with ordinary jhp ammo for self defense against humans or deer hunting, it would be expected to expand on a bear skull shot from the front without penetrating the skull at all. Some people carry jsp ammo for SD against bears. But it expands too, just not as much as jhp usually. Bear loads are usually super hard cast bullets that have large flat tips and are heavy for the caliber. Any idea what bullets were in the Blackhawk?

I don't know the location you are talking about. Was this a black bear or a grizzly? I thought you were talking about a black bear, but black bears usually cease attacking if injured. A bear that is still attacking after three or four rifle bullets sounds more like a grizzly. You can't count on average behavior though.

 

[The Heretic]

If the .357 Ruger Blackhawk was loaded with ordinary jhp ammo for self defense against humans or deer hunting, it would be expected to expand on a bear skull shot from the front without penetrating the skull at all. Some people carry jsp ammo for SD against bears. But it expands too, just not as much as jhp usually. Bear loads are usually super hard cast bullets that have large flat tips and are heavy for the caliber. Any idea what bullets were in the Blackhawk?

The .44 mag JSP loads I bought for brown bear defense are thicker jackets with no interior cuts for expansion. They probably expand somewhat when hitting thick bones, but at 275 & 300 grains loaded hot, were meant to penetrate well even when hitting bones. I never had to use them. I bought them back in the mid 80s when I carried a DW 6" in Alaska.

In the years I worked in Alaska and Montana, and the times I traveled thru ID, MT and AK, plus the years of hunting in OR/WA, I have never seen a bear, black or brown, in the wild. I know black bears and cougars are on my property because others have seen them, but I rarely carry any type of firearm.

 

[OldBroad44]

I've not had the experience - hell, I've never even seen a bear or cougar in the wild, despite the fact that they are on my property. But I have read that with a brown bear, if it becomes aggressive and is charging (i.e., you decide to shoot it and you have the means) that you should try to stop its means of locomotion by breaking one front shoulder and then the other and then go for the kill shot. The stated reasoning is that it is hard to kill a brown bear and that they often do not know they are dead until after they have killed you - but you can try to prevent them from getting to you by removing/reducing their ability to move towards you, and that it is hard to get a head shot on any animal that is moving but a front shoulder shot is easier.

Something to think about.

I suspect that this advice, if valid at all, is for people carrying high powered hunting rifles, not handguns. Rifles that would completely destroy a shoulder's ability to function if they hit it at all. I think with a handgun bullet you would need to hit the shoulder joint itself or the upper leg bone to stop the animal. And only if it felt like stopping, as four legged animals can run with three legs. The grizzly brain is probably a larger target for one shot instant incapacitating than the shoulder if you're talking handgun calibers. Furthermore, if the animal is charging the brain is sorta between the shoulders. If you miss somewhat laterally you hit a shoulder. Its sort of center mass on a charging bear. I think. At any rate, nothing I've read on SD against bears with handguns recommends shooting them in the shoulder. I've pointed a gun at a surprised black bear just once from 22' away. The bear was down on all fours and the head was the natural point of aim. It was huge. The shoulders were small. The body of the bear was hidden by the head. The head was basically center mass. ("My" bear ran, so did not need to be shot. It wasn't hunting season.)

 

[Rem725]

If the .357 Ruger Blackhawk was loaded with ordinary jhp ammo for self defense against humans or deer hunting, it would be expected to expand on a bear skull shot from the front without penetrating the skull at all. Some people carry jsp ammo for SD against bears. But it expands too, just not as much as jhp usually. Bear loads are usually super hard cast bullets that have large flat tips and are heavy for the caliber. Any idea what bullets were in the Blackhawk?

I don't know the location you are talking about. Was this a black bear or a grizzly? I thought you were talking about a black bear, but black bears usually cease attacking if injured. A bear that is still attacking after three or four rifle bullets sounds more like a grizzly. You can't count on average behavior though.

I do not know the 357 ammo. The rifle shots were 25-06. It was a black bear about 2 years old they said. I was standing very near, ready to retreat. The neighboring campers during elk season had gotten permission to dispatch the camp robber. The Rangers told them the bear's mother was poached months earlier. All this was done by our neighboring elk campers who had an elk hanging.

 

[DeanMk]

FWIW, the weak spot on a bear is apparently the side of the skull, between the eye and the ear.

Bella Twin, the .22 Used to Take the 1953 World Record Grizzly, and More

On 10 May, 1953, Bella Twin was hunting small game with her partner, Dave Auger, along an oil exploration cutline south of Slave Lake. She was 63 years old.

www.ammoland.com

Not that I'm promoting using a .22 to go bear hunting with, but as part of that article reads.....

"For those curious about how to place that shot on a live bear, the place to aim is half way on a line from the center of the eye to the ear hole.
From the front, you would aim directly up the nose. If the bear's mouth is open, aim for the back of the roof of the mouth. Aiming above the nose will likely miss the brain."

So, if you're ever in a situation where you're confronted by a bear and you've got the presence of mind to calmly aim and take that shot, hopefully that little guide will help save your life.

...of course, if it were me, I'd run like hell, because she's probably just worried about her cubs.
She shouldn't chase you far....but its always good to have a "Plan B".

 

[Rem725]

My question is do I carry the S&W 58 in 41, or the 6" GP100 in 44. Both are quite heavy.

 

[OldBroad44]

FWIW, the weak spot on a bear is apparently the side of the skull, between the eye and the ear.

Bella Twin, the .22 Used to Take the 1953 World Record Grizzly, and More

On 10 May, 1953, Bella Twin was hunting small game with her partner, Dave Auger, along an oil exploration cutline south of Slave Lake. She was 63 years old.

www.ammoland.com

Not that I'm promoting using a .22 to go bear hunting with, but as part of that article reads.....

"For those curious about how to place that shot on a live bear, the place to aim is half way on a line from the center of the eye to the ear hole.
From the front, you would aim directly up the nose. If the bear's mouth is open, aim for the back of the roof of the mouth. Aiming above the nose will likely miss the brain."

So, if you're ever in a situation where you're confronted by a bear and you've got the presence of mind to calmly aim and take that shot, hopefully that little guide will help save your life.

...of course, if it were me, I'd run like hell, because she's probably just worried about her cubs.
She shouldn't chase you far....but its always good to have a "Planadvises

Sounds good. Except everyone advises against running from bears. This triggers their prey drive. Happen, BTW, to read recently that a black bear can cover 100 yards in 3 seconds. Googling a bit more: Either black or grizzly bears can reach 35 mph. Top human speed is just under 29. Most humans are unable to do more than 15 mph for short distances.

 

[sobo]

...read recently that a black bear can cover 100 yards in 3 seconds.

Sorry, OB44, but I gotta call BS on that one, just cuz of simple math and a well-known fact...

To wit:

100 yds in 3 sec is 100 ft/sec. The fastest land animal, the cheetah, has been reliably recorded to only make 61 mph, which is barely 90 ft/sec.

Q.E.D.

 

[OldBroad44]

Sorry, OB44, but I gotta call BS on that one, just cuz of simple math and a well-known fact...

To wit:

100 yds in 3 sec is 100 ft/sec. The fastest land animal, the cheetah, has been reliably recorded to only make 61 mph, which is barely 90 ft/sec.

Q.E.D.

Ya got me. I shoulda done the calculations before I quoted it. Mea culpa. Thanks.

 

[sobo]

Ya got me. I shoulda done the calculations before I quoted it. Mea culpa. Thanks.

You're fine. I'm not b*tchin' at you, just calling out the book/author where you read that BS. We're all good!