Mountain Lion Defensive Pistol

[bbbass]

But with a Kodiak all a cougar (or even a bear) has to do is lay flat on the road (at the last second) to scooch under. Now a moose or elk...

I got a full length cow catcher on the front. LOL




Not really. I got a 3500 Duramax dually.... they better watch out for the rear tires!!

 

[The Heretic]

I got a full length cow catcher on the front. LOL




Not really. I got a 3500 Duramax dually.... they better watch out for the rear tires!!

That is lower - about the same ground clearance as a pickup, so they would have to do it just right - a cougar maybe, a bear is too fat. The bigger class 6+ trucks that are AWD they stand a better chance if they aim to miss the diff pumpkin and the wheels are tall, but still pretty iffy. I have thought about buying one that size - would like an AWD FL M2 with a 20'+ bed, especially if I could get a 6x6 with locking diffs - I want something larger than my one ton with a 12' bed to convert to an RV.

 

[bbbass]

I've seen cougars cross the road, seen one sitting by the road, but I ain never gotten anywhere close enough to run one over. Ifn ah could, mebe I just salt his tail instead.

 

[The Heretic]

I've seen cougars cross the road, seen one sitting by the road, but I ain never gotten anywhere close enough to run one over. Ifn ah could, mebe I just salt his tail instead.

Neighbors have seen them (bears & cougars) close by - I have not been that lucky. All I see are coyotes and deer and the occasional skunk, rabbit, porcupine, squirrel and chipmunks.

 

[bbbass]

Neighbors have seen them (bears & cougars) close by - I have not been that lucky. All I see are coyotes and deer and the occasional skunk, rabbit, porcupine, squirrel and chipmunks.

Sounds like a good smorgasbord.

 

[SrMachoSolo]

My first choice is a 2500 ram diesel

"If you can't shoot it, ram it"?

-Robert

 

[OldBroad44]

Great recommendations. One thing I take issue with though is using heavily constructed bullets in instances where their benefit is marginal at best. The classic 158gr and 240gr jhp/jsp bullets out of .357 and .44 magnum handguns won't expand on deer-sized animals unless large bones are hit, just pencilling on through.

I agree and disagree. Cougars are fairly light built animals. I figure anything good for SD against humans is fine for SD against cougars. So sure the classic jhp and jsp loads, such as 158 gr .357 and 240 gr .44 would work. So would all standard 9mm SD loads.

But I disagree ultimately with the bigger question--whether you should carry standard jhp or jsp bullets designed for SD against humans for SD against cougars when in cougar turf. I say no, because anywhere there are cougars there are also likely to be black bears. And you are lots more likely to have trouble with a bear than a cougar. And black bears are better handled with heavily constructed hardcast bullets with wide flat noses in .357mag, .41mag., 44sp, .44mag, and .45 in revolvers. Or 10mm or 45acp in pistols. These bullet styles penetrate best where that's needed, such as on a bear skull. And they depend on the fatness of the bullet and destruction ability of the flat nose to create a major wound cavity without any need for expanding bullets in lighter creatures such as cougars or attacking dogs or humans.

I don't really trust even flat nose hardcast 9mm as bear loads, even for head shots, since the bullets, in order to feed properly, have only tiny flat noses and are very close to round noses, well-known for zipping through stuff and doing little damage. Or deflecting, a big problem with thick sloped bear skulls shot from the front. And I would not trust 10mm bear loads as much as .357 mag bear loads for the same reason, even though they are equally powerful when you compare the hottest loads of both. But the revolver allows bullets with wide flat noses and sharp edges, the design optimal for bear SD. The semiauto doesnt. However if I had to deal with an entire pack of aggressive dogs, wolves or bad humans, a high capacity 9mm has advantages, obviously. There's no perfect single gun and load for all scenarios. And there can be situations where only a rifle will do. Such as if you need to save someone who is being attacked by a cougar or bear who is too far away for handgun distances such as happen with @Ura-Ki.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I agree and disagree. Cougars are fairly light built animals. I figure anything good for SD against humans is fine for SD against cougars. So sure the classic jhp and jsp loads, such as 158 gr .357 and 240 gr .44 would work..

Well that's the thing, the classic 158 and 240gr magum rounds are pretty horrible for defense as they won't expand. THE classic stopper of all time is/was the 125gr sjhp .357 magnum out of a 4", not far ballistically than a hot 115gr 9mm out of a duty sized gun.

 

[Flopsweat]

I agree and disagree. Cougars are fairly light built animals. I figure anything good for SD against humans is fine for SD against cougars. So sure the classic jhp and jsp loads, such as 158 gr .357 and 240 gr .44 would work. So would all standard 9mm SD loads.

But I disagree ultimately with the bigger question--whether you should carry standard jhp or jsp bullets designed for SD against humans for SD against cougars when in cougar turf. I say no, because anywhere there are cougars there are also likely to be black bears. And you are lots more likely to have trouble with a bear than a cougar. And black bears are better handled with heavily constructed hardcast bullets with wide flat noses in .357mag, .41mag., 44sp, .44mag, and .45 in revolvers. Or 10mm or 45acp in pistols. These bullet styles penetrate best where that's needed, such as on a bear skull. And they depend on the fatness of the bullet and destruction ability of the flat nose to create a major wound cavity without any need for expanding bullets in lighter creatures such as cougars or attacking dogs or humans.

I don't really trust even flat nose hardcast 9mm as bear loads, even for head shots, since the bullets, in order to feed properly, have only tiny flat noses and are very close to round noses, well-known for zipping through stuff and doing little damage. Or deflecting, a big problem with thick sloped bear skulls shot from the front. And I would not trust 10mm bear loads as much as .357 mag bear loads for the same reason, even though they are equally powerful when you compare the hottest loads of both. But the revolver allows bullets with wide flat noses and sharp edges, the design optimal for bear SD. The semiauto doesnt. However if I had to deal with an entire pack of aggressive dogs, wolves or bad humans, a high capacity 9mm has advantages, obviously. There's no perfect single gun and load for all scenarios. And there can be situations where only a rifle will do. Such as if you need to save someone who is being attacked by a cougar or bear who is too far away for handgun distances such as happen with @Ura-Ki.

You're a smart old broad, arncha?

 

[Tri-CitiesJohn]

10mm- Glock 20 would be my first choice or the XDM 4.5 Springfield

 

[OldBroad44]

Well that's the thing, the classic 158 and 240gr magum rounds are pretty horrible for defense as they won't expand. THE classic stopper of all time is/was the 125gr sjhp .357 magnum out of a 4", not far ballistically than a hot 115gr 9mm out of a duty sized gun.

The 125 grain jhp .357 load shot from 4 inch barrels is the classic stopper when the target is a human because that is what police used, so there are data. The last I looked, .44 mag rated less highly than .357 for SD against humans. But there were so few killings of humans with .44 mag that the data aren't statistically significant. So the statement "240 gr 44 mag rounds are horrible for defense against humans" is incorrect. And theres certainly inadequate data to say anything statistically significant about effectiveness of different ammo and bullet types in .44 for SD against humans. What black bear handgun hunters traditionally preferred was mostly heavy extra hard cast bullets with wide flat noses in fat calibers such as .41, .44sp, .44mag, and .45. With a minority choosing JSP. And everyone recommending strongly against jhp . With some also recommending against jsp.

There are probably also insufficient data to say a .357 loaded with bear loads is "horrible for SD" against humans. I doubt if there are enough data on that to be statistically significant, as one doesn't usually carry such high penetrating rounds in cities where most homicides occur.
A round designed to expand against a light creature such as a human and dump its energy within is inevitably going to be less than optimal in penetration against a bear skull shot from the front. And its the bear that's running right toward you that you need worry about in the SD context. If its running in some other direction you can just wave goodbye.

 

[The Heretic]

I could be wrong, but I agree that for bear, even black bear, I want a heavier projectile that will penetrate better - but at the same time, for a cougar, I would prefer something that would expand. One of the benefits of a revolver is that you can load it with different loads in the same cylinder, and just about any load will at least leave the barrel and let you shoot the next round without feeding issues.

My TRR8 with 8 shots of .357 mag is not a bad compromise - a light frame and a steel cylinder with a 5" barrel, able to handle stout loads and not objectionable recoil like my 329PD, I could load it with two 125 gr JHP, two 158 gr JHP/JSP/HC, two 180 gr HC and two 180 gr JSP. A couple of shots would probably do the trick on black bear, cougar, dogs, coyotes, etc. and I could take a deer with it. I can keep it light or put a scope on it, or a red dot, and a laser/light - easily enough with the two rails.

 

[OldBroad44]

You're a smart old broad, arncha?

I like technical stuff. And when I hiked and camped, it was normally alone, off trail, often for days or weeks, with nobody told where I was going or when I was coming back. (Often I didn't know. And if some weather event became an issue or I was overly tired I considered it safer to hole up a while than to try to travel when overly tired or under suboptimal weather conditions so as to get to some specific place at some specific time.)(I'm fine with cold but very heat intolerant.) That made it important to really be carrying the right stuff and understand its capabilities and my own as well. And to know enough to not do anything stupid. I was a much younger broad in those days, though. Sooner or later I used every bit of my emergency equipment including the tampons, with one exception...the gun. Hee, hee, hee. (except for practice and getting the occasional rabbit.)

By the way, A guy I ran into in S Oregon who was manning a fire watch tower told me that if I ever broke a leg off trail, the fast way out would be to start a smoky fire. There are fire watchers from towers or planes covering everywhere, he said, and all fires of unknown origin are investigated. This was before GPS or cell phones.

 

[Flopsweat]

I like technical stuff. And when I hiked and camped, it was normally alone, off trail, often for days or weeks, with nobody told where I was going or when I was coming back. (Often I didn't know. And if some weather event became an issue or I was overly tired I considered it safer to hole up a while than to try to travel when overly tired or under suboptimal weather conditions so as to get to some specific place at some specific time.)(I'm fine with cold but very heat intolerant.) That made it important to really be carrying the right stuff and understand its capabilities and my own as well. And to know enough to not do anything stupid. I was a much younger broad in those days, though. Sooner or later I used every bit of my emergency equipment including the tampons, with one exception...the gun. Hee, hee, hee. (except for practice and getting the occasional rabbit.)

By the way, A guy I ran into in S Oregon who was manning a fire watch tower told me that if I ever broke a leg off trail, the fast way out would be to start a smoky fire. There are fire watchers from towers or planes covering everywhere, he said, and all fires of unknown origin are investigated. This was before GPS or cell phones.

It's that or shoot a Condor.

 

[OldBroad44]

I could be wrong, but I agree that for bear, even black bear, I want a heavier projectile that will penetrate better - but at the same time, for a cougar, I would prefer something that would expand. One of the benefits of a revolver is that you can load it with different loads in the same cylinder, and just about any load will at least leave the barrel and let you shoot the next round without feeding issues.

My TRR8 with 8 shots of .357 mag is not a bad compromise - a light frame and a steel cylinder with a 5" barrel, able to handle stout loads and not objectionable recoil like my 329PD, I could load it with two 125 gr JHP, two 158 gr JHP/JSP/HC, two 180 gr HC and two 180 gr JSP. A couple of shots would probably do the trick on black bear, cougar, dogs, coyotes, etc. and I could take a deer with it. I can keep it light or put a scope on it, or a red dot, and a laser/light - easily enough with the two rails.

I agree with .357 being great for general woods carry and self defense in places where there are no grizzly bears. And you can certainly get deer with it. And I like being able to load a more penetrating bear load in three cylinder holes and a less penetrating jhp in the other three. When I get out of the car to head into the woods I swing the cylinder so the three bear loads will fire first. As I get back in my car and return to civilization where over penetration would be an issue, I swing the cylinder so the jhp bullets will fire first.

I will admit to having drooled a bit over the TRR8.

 

[Patriot1775]

Hike with a homeless person. That way you reduce crime/tax burden and feed the kitty at the same time! Win win!

 

[DeanMk]

I agree and disagree. Cougars are fairly light built animals. I figure anything good for SD against humans is fine for SD against cougars. So sure the classic jhp and jsp loads, such as 158 gr .357 and 240 gr .44 would work. So would all standard 9mm SD loads.

But I disagree ultimately with the bigger question--whether you should carry standard jhp or jsp bullets designed for SD against humans for SD against cougars when in cougar turf. I say no, because anywhere there are cougars there are also likely to be black bears. And you are lots more likely to have trouble with a bear than a cougar. And black bears are better handled with heavily constructed hardcast bullets with wide flat noses in .357mag, .41mag., 44sp, .44mag, and .45 in revolvers. Or 10mm or 45acp in pistols. These bullet styles penetrate best where that's needed, such as on a bear skull. And they depend on the fatness of the bullet and destruction ability of the flat nose to create a major wound cavity without any need for expanding bullets in lighter creatures such as cougars or attacking dogs or humans.

I don't really trust even flat nose hardcast 9mm as bear loads, even for head shots, since the bullets, in order to feed properly, have only tiny flat noses and are very close to round noses, well-known for zipping through stuff and doing little damage. Or deflecting, a big problem with thick sloped bear skulls shot from the front. And I would not trust 10mm bear loads as much as .357 mag bear loads for the same reason, even though they are equally powerful when you compare the hottest loads of both. But the revolver allows bullets with wide flat noses and sharp edges, the design optimal for bear SD. The semiauto doesnt. However if I had to deal with an entire pack of aggressive dogs, wolves or bad humans, a high capacity 9mm has advantages, obviously. There's no perfect single gun and load for all scenarios. And there can be situations where only a rifle will do. Such as if you need to save someone who is being attacked by a cougar or bear who is too far away for handgun distances such as happen with @Ura-Ki.

...another plus to a wide flat-nosed bullet is increased weight compared to some other shapes of the same length.
This aids momentum which can help drive the bullet deeper through thick flesh, heavy muscle and bone.

Cast Performance Bullets | Hunting Bullets | Grizzly Cartridge

Our cast performance bullets are the world's finest high performance handgun hunting bullets. The cast bullets we manufacture are superior to conventional bullets.

www.grizzlycartridge.com

 

[OldBroad44]

...another plus to a wide flat-nosed bullet is increased weight compared to some other shapes of the same length.
This aids momentum which can help drive the bullet deeper through thick flesh, heavy muscle and bone.

Cast Performance Bullets | Hunting Bullets | Grizzly Cartridge

Our cast performance bullets are the world's finest high performance handgun hunting bullets. The cast bullets we manufacture are superior to conventional bullets.

www.grizzlycartridge.com

Another advantage of wide flat nosed bullets, I've read (at the Garrett cartridges website), is that bullets with light tips tend to tumble in flesh because the heavy base retains momentum compared to the light tip and tries to catch up with it. This leads to bullets deflecting into curved paths instead of going straight through after initial penetration.

 

[The Heretic]

By the way, A guy I ran into in S Oregon who was manning a fire watch tower told me that if I ever broke a leg off trail, the fast way out would be to start a smoky fire. There are fire watchers from towers or planes covering everywhere, he said, and all fires of unknown origin are investigated. This was before GPS or cell phones.

I don't think fire towers are manned anymore. They mostly rely on more technology based solutions from what I have read.

 

[OldBroad44]

Another advantage of wide flat nosed bullets, I've read (at the Garrett cartridges website), is that bullets with light tips tend to tumble in flesh because the heavy base retains momentum compared to the light tip and tries to catch up with it. This leads to bullets deflecting into curved paths instead of going straight through after initial penetration.

Another advantage of of the heavy extra hardcast revolver bear loads with their large flat noses and sharp edge design is supposedly least deflected by everything from brush to shoulder bones of large animals to heavy sloped bear skulls. Garrett hard cast bullets are Grinnell 21 as I recall. Grizzly's Cast Performance bullets are Grinnell 18 to 21. Bullets like this can go through heavy bone normally without changing shape at all.