National Modifying firearms to conform with laws. Illegal or not?

[Sporting Systems]

Well separating an upper from a lower isnt really modifying it. Its separating. And the upper isnt a firearm. So if you remove the non firearm part from the equation all you're left with is a reciever. The compliance guy at the firearm manufacturer I work for doesnt have a problem with people doing this, and he is as strict as strict gets when it comes to "bending the rules".

If he records the change in his manufacturing log, that is legal. But, if his intent is to bypass state law by doing this, that's a fine line with an AG that doesn't likes any of our lines.

 

[Sporting Systems]

I am most concerned with modifying a firearm in a way that makes it compliant or not subject to rules/laws. sportingsystems seems to think that if you separated an AR during a sale to avoid being subject to I-1639 laws, that it would be illegal, because your action was intended to skirt the law. I would argue that all the modifications I listed in previous post would be done to skirt or avoid being in conflict with the law. If I was planning on buying an AR15 rifle at a LGS but decided to buy an assembled lower and complete upper instead to avoid I-1639, would that be illegal? I wouldn't think so but my intention was to avoid the I-1639 law so who knows.

If you bought 2 separate pieces and married them, that is just fine. totally legal, even though your intent is to build a rifle, you're still buying a lower that is on the FFL's A&D books as a lower receiver.

 

[Sporting Systems]

Probably a dumb question, but if an AR is purchased initially fully assembled, is it initially sold as a Rifle? If the upper is removed and the lower is sold seperately later as "Other", would this be legal? Would it set off any flags in what ever system that may be tracking the purchases? I don't know, but seems like it might be an issue.

Not likely, unless the lower was recovered as part of a crime. the investigation may lead that back to you, but then just have a bill of sale and an alibi. You can separate them if you wish, and sell just the lower if you wish.

 

[Sporting Systems]

In the case of ARs it would be relatively easy to find an alternative that would avoid I-1639 laws but the same circumstances could apply to pistols as well which would not be as easy to find an alternative for (except for Glocks). It seems like we should be able to arrive at a consensus on whether it's legal or not. sportingsystems has indicated that they believe it is illegal but others think it's on the edge. The firearm community does a lot of stuff that is on the edge, including barrel length limits, etc.

Being in the middle the federal court challenge to 1639, we know a little bit more than most. I've been deposed by the Attorney General, I'm prepared to stand before a federal judge, and have assisted the legal team in wiring briefs, motions and discovery requests. It's not on the edge, its changing the classification of an item to circumvent the law. The intent will foul you up with state and federal law. Its silly, but it's the truth.

 

[Sporting Systems]

If it was originally sold as an "other" or pistol, and never went thru an FFL for a transfer after that. Then the next transfer could go thru either as a pistol, "other" or rifle. If it shows up as pistol or "other" in a transfer, then still good to go however the purchaser wishes to configure it. Problem is (at this point), how does the purchaser know that the lower was never entered into the system as a rifle?

Maybe the NICS system knows such things and would flag it? I don't know.

But if it was originally entered into the system as "other", and then a subsequent transfer shows it as a rifle, then I would guess that the ATF would treat it as a rifle from that point on, assuming it was originally configured as a rifle after bing bought as "other". One would have to ask the ATF such questions, but that is my guess.

If bought as "other", then somewhere along the lines, something has to show it was configured as a pistol originally for the ATF to assume it was originally configured as a pistol.

I would assume that if it was bought as "other" and thereafter transferred as "other", then the ATF system continues to see it as "other". What someone does in between, if there is no record of the firearm being anything besides "other", then legally there is no proof it is anything but "other".

Technically though, I believe/think that if the original or subsequent owner of the firearm configured it as a pistol or rifle, then it has ceased to be an "other" and then become whatever the owner configured it as originally. So yes, if you configure it as a rifle or pistol then separate the lower and sell it as "other", you are probably doing so illegally (technically) - but does there exist a paperwork trail somewhere to show this is what you did? Is there some other proof this is what you did (photos in a for sale ad? emails? etc.)?

NICS doesn't have any serial number, makes, model, caliber or other info, excepot type of item (handgun, long gun, other) NICS is on the person, and the person alone.

 

[arakboss]

I thought a firearm manufactured 50+ years ago qualified as a C&R and 1940 is 80 years ago.

I believe you are right but you would need a C&R license and in Oregon that still wouldn't do you any good since we are still required to run firearms through FFL (except antiques).

 

[arakboss]

Being in the middle the federal court challenge to 1639, we know a little bit more than most. I've been deposed by the Attorney General, I'm prepared to stand before a federal judge, and have assisted the legal team in wiring briefs, motions and discovery requests. It's not on the edge, its changing the classification of an item to circumvent the law. The intent will foul you up with state and federal law. Its silly, but it's the truth.

I trust your opinion. If the seller brings in the receiver that was once built in to a rifle and ask that you don't change the classification can you legally accommodate that request. It seems it's up to the FFL to record the classification not the seller. I have filled out bunches of Form 4473s and have never been allowed to select the classification myself.

Can FFLs ever legally classify a stripped receiver or barreled receiver as a rifle or pistol?

A FFL on gunbroker is selling a AK barreled receiver and informed me that they would be classifying it as a rifle? My understanding was that if the firearm did not have a stock it could not be legally classified as a rifle?

Can you say for sure how receiver/frame transfers will be handled once the feds stop doing the direct NICS checks on them around July 1st? Is WA all set up to do the background checks on them once the feds stop?

 

[arakboss]

@Sporting Systems I am going to be listing an unfinished project firearm similar to this colt OEM but less the bcg and a few other parts. Barrel is 16 inches. There will be no pistol grip installed and no stock installed or included with sale. Should it be classified on the fed paperwork as a rifle, a pistol, a receiver, or? Can you explain the legal reasoning for the classification you believe it should be recorded as? Thanks

 

[Sporting Systems]

@Sporting Systems I am going to be listing an unfinished project firearm similar to this colt OEM but less the bcg and a few other parts. Barrel is 16 inches. There will be no pistol grip installed and no stock installed or included with sale. Should it be classified on the fed paperwork as a rifle, a pistol, a receiver, or? Can you explain the legal reasoning for the classification you believe it should be recorded as? Thanks

View attachment 711699

With the barrel installed, it will be transferred as a rifle.

 

[Sporting Systems]

>>I trust your opinion. If the seller brings in the receiver that was once built in to a rifle and ask that you don't change the classification can you legally accommodate that request. It seems it's up to the FFL to record the classification not the seller. I have filled out bunches of Form 4473s and have never been allowed to select the classification myself.

The seller doesn't get to choose. Neither does the FFL, the FFL will select the appropriate classification based on the item being transferred as defined under federal law. What you bring to the FFL is everything.


>>Can FFLs ever legally classify a stripped receiver or barreled receiver as a rifle or pistol?

Not a stripped, that is a frame/receiver only. Attached a barrel, then its a rifle (16" or longer) or a handgun (less than 16" barrel), dont go into "but its an SBR"...thats an entirely different transfer process.


>>A FFL on gunbroker is selling a AK barreled receiver and informed me that they would be classifying it as a rifle? My understanding was that if the firearm did not have a stock it could not be legally classified as a rifle?

The barrel defines it.

>>Can you say for sure how receiver/frame transfers will be handled once the feds stop doing the direct NICS checks on them around July 1st? Is WA all set up to do the background checks on them once the feds stop?

Nothing is changing in July. I've been explaining this for months, but others keep spreading the bad info as gospel. We will be doing NICS checks on frames, receivers, and others until well into 2023. HB2555 is effective 30 days after the State patrol has a new single point of contact background check system, they haven't even started the process yet.

 

[ARFrog]

Wasn't is Shakespeare that wrote: "to modify or not to modify, that is the question!"

I know it was something like that...

It is an ongoing ordeal that as a Californian I have had to put up with:

- bullet buttons
- choices of registering AW or not
- modifying by removing evil features
- etc, etc

Currently, I am looking at changing one AR into a bolt gun. Can you spell NEUTER?

AR-15 Kali Key ERGO + BCG Bundle - Kali Key

AR-15 Kali Key ERGO Bolt-Action System (B.A.S.)+ BCG Bundle IN-STOCK. SAME DAY SHIPPING IF ORDERED BY 2pm PST. AR-15 Kali Key ERGO B.A.S. + BCG = Bundle and Save! The only solution of its kind on the market: This bundle comes complete with BCG (Black Nitride with MPI 5.56 Bolt) and Kali Key...

kalikey.com

Good luck with your choices and work arounds in your location...

 

[arakboss]

With the barrel installed, it will be transferred as a rifle.

My understanding was, that a stock is required to be classfied as a rifle.

With the barrel installed, it will be transferred as a rifle.

Thank you for the info. My understanding was that to be classified as a rifle it would require a stock designed to be shouldered along with a barrel 16+ inches. Can you point me to the atf documentation that would indicate that a barrel length alone on a receiver would determine the classification of a firearm? Brownell's is transferring Howa barreled actions as receivers and this allows somebody who buys a barreled action from them to make it in to a bolt action handgun. Is Brownell's classifying them illegally?

I would really like get a full grasp of these classification requirements as many FFLs seem to have different interpretations and it would be nice to be able to read the actual law or rules on the subject.

Regarding Brownells thread on reddit:

Using a barreled action for a pistol build?
Is a barreled bolt action without a stock considered a rifle? I'm looking into the legality of purchasing a Howa action and putting it into an MDT chassis with an SBA3 instead of a stock. This should in theory allow me to cut down the barrel later and have a small bolt action "pistol", right?

Edit: Talked to my local FFL about it some and they basically default to considering it a "rifle" because it's greater than 16". Technically a pistol doesn't have an established maximum barrel length though so I'm going to contact Brownell's about how they transfer it and if it can be transferred as a "firearm". If it can, I'm good to go.

Edit 2: Brownells said they transfer it as "Other". If anyone else goes this route be sure to check with your FFL about how they handle it. The first one I tried basically told me they don't care what it's transferred to them as, if it has a barrel attached that's greater than 16" then it's leaving them as a "Rifle". The second one said they'd transfer it to me as an "Other" and they don't care what I do with it from there.

 

[arakboss]

This weekend, I am going to put together a cheat sheet thread with photos of the most common AR configurations and how they might be classified by batf. If somebody knows of a cheat sheet already in existence please share a link. I don't own a SBR or an AR shotgun so if somebody here does and will send me one pic of each that I can use in thread I would appreciate it.