Looking for information on negligent discharge occurrence and brand, type, and position of non duty carry pistols.

[officially5150]

I second the leave it in the holster comment when I was working armed security the only point of concern of an ND I had was holstering or unholstering my weapon, so I did it only as many times as I had to.
While that was a professional situation that didn't require concealed carry I've personally been hit by stupidity amd have had an ND, at 16 I sent a 22lr thru my finger and blew out the joint, while in the process of checking the chamber to verify clear on a stoeger luger toggle top my finger slipped off the side of the frame and lightly hit the trigger, the firearm was pointed down and away from all parties in the room but the hand that was reaching up to cycle the action was flagged and well it was a painful lesson but one I will never forget.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Hi guys.
I am starting to get a bit more serious about consistently carrying in a time of failing confidence of civilized progression in our metropolitan areas. My personal safety and the safety of those in my company from my own firearm has always found top priority when I make any considerations in carrying a weapon. I strongly hope as well as believe I will much more likely experience negligent or accidental discharge ten times over the smallest chance in hell of my choice in using lethal force in the defense of my own, and I gratefully have so many habits/choices/routines/needs that I find protection and safety in passively without active force.
I was hoping to get a feeling of what others consider and what/when/where and also how (pocket/car/nightstand/iwb/owb, etc,) and the needs of the chosen carry piece considered. As stated I fear negligent discharge in my top considerations, and find the small 380 from M&P chambered with a thumb safety to meet my needs, however the 6 round limitation leaves me wanting.
I'd love to hear experiences or relationship with negligent discharge occurrences. Also hoping to find consensual recommended professional references.
I know it's all here in the many threads, but I keep getting distracted and end up in the classified section. Those bright and shiny classified opportunities so easily become what's really important!

There are many manual of arms differences between the various handguns. The one common distinction between them all however is they all have a trigger and in the final analysis, pulling that discharges the cartridge.
So it's really rather simple if you think about it.

 

[washagonian]

Lots of folks have provided some excellent perspectives so far, especially @Koda emphasizing Col. Cooper's 4 safety rules.

Here's my 2 cents.

An accidental discharge is a mechanical failure.

A negligent discharge is operator error.

To avoid the first - 1. research the track record of reliability and safety of the weapons you intend to run for self-defense. (Google or Duck-Duck-Go is your friend); 2. Know your weapons' manual of arms and maintain them appropriately.

To avoid the second, practice all stages of weapon deployment: e.g., clearing cover garmet, grip, draw, ready position(s), weapon presentation, target acquisition, sight alignment, safety disengagement, trigger press, ready position, reholster. Do it so much that you develop muscle memory for all.

Dry fire is your friend.

TWYLALTR

Cheers

 

[TNThomas]

Just a thought, consider carrying mid-size with a fanny pack. I have almost 100% switched to fanny carry with a 4" barrel 357 revolvers or full size Makarovs. The fanny pack is slick for multiple reasons. Reason #1 is that its a fanny pack and you are cool by default if wearing one. #2 they are super practical and confortable. You can rotate them to different positions, they can carry multiple different weapons.

For years I pocket carried a 38 special J frame while wile working in downtown Seattle. That was nice because I was always armed, and in dicey scenarios you can literally have your hand on your gun in your pocket and nobody notices. But my main concern with the small gun is actually putting rounds on target at any distance. Insert the fanny pack, you can carry guns that are actually good at hitting things, and do it with hipster style. Plus, what gun person doesn't like having more pockets? You are literally strapping a socially acceptable pocket on.

If you are hitting what you are aiming at, 6 rounds and spare ammo should be good. It depends on your mentality though. When I was single, working downtown, I regularly went out of my way to chase down robbers, break up fights, call out idiot actions by homeless people and hood rats. Now, as a father of 3 and a husband, I'm not putting my life on the line to save anybody except my family. With that thought, my 5 round revolvers with an extra speed strip should suffice. If I was going out of my way to have tea parties with Antifa or try to talk logic and philosophy to any of the marches downtown, I would lose the advantages that a 4" barrel revolver presents, and a hi-cap gun might be better. But I stay the heck away from those places, and encourage everybody else to do the same.

I'm also talking about wearing fanny packs on the waist as they were/are intended, not this chai-tea drinking over the chest garbage that the hipsters are doing.

Good video for fanny carry:

View: https://youtu.be/W4Ext_yuTS0?si=NV5ajw7dA1fGQ6V_


This is the one I went with, video was spot on, its a good pack for the money, plus lots of colors to dial in your gray-man/hipster presentation: https://www.amazon.com/HELIKON-TEX-...oo0q9H0Luqe__0BSUq49rb9gAIrztmYBoCtxEQAvD_BwE

Consider a big folding knife when/where legal, I include this in my carry routine as well, its about 17" long when unfolded, lots of reach: https://www.bladehq.com/item--Cold-Steel-Espada-Extra-Large--93968

 

[oremike]

One thing not mentioned so far and the way I carry is with no round in the chamber but a loaded magazine in the pistol. That's how we carried when I was in the Navy doing roving patrols or standing Quarterdeck watches. . It doesn't matter if it's a Glock , 1911 or anything else I don't chamber a round until I'm ready to shoot. Now I know that there are those that will say I'm doing it wrong but my background is as a competitive shooter , not as a combat pistolero so I run with what I know.

 

[orygun]

Please don't tell my Kimber K6s that 6 rounds isn't enough. It might commit Glockicide.

That's one more than the little gun I carry.

Good wood is easy to grasp.

Indeed... but good wood can also be painful for the user.

Good wood that fits properly is the key. My J-frame has a set of wood grips that fit my hand perfectly. Because of that the gun seems to recoil less than the L-frame with large grips shooting the same ammo.

Back to the point of the thread.
When i started carrying I used a shoulder holster with a snubbie, moving to a fanny pack with an Officers sized 1911. Back then fanny packs were everywhere and nobody really thought one might contain a gun. These days I believe that most people assume there is a gun in there and I wouldn't consider it a "good" option. Even though the fanny pack I still have has retention straps, it's not where near as secure or safe to draw from as a good holster. Open it up, fish around for the grip of the gun, then draw. Not secure enough or safe enough, if you ask me.
After that I moved to an IWB with a 1911, which is still my preferred style of concealed carry. Carrying cocked and locked, I don't know if my biggest "fear" was being noticed for carrying the gun, or worrying that the safety might get bumped "off". It took a while for the paranoia of being noticed to fade away and by then I learned that the safety had never moved.
I believe that "negligent discharges" happen in the hand, not in the holster. Any holster that doesn't cover the trigger is a recipe for trouble. Trigger finger placement during the draw is of utmost importance, as is NOT FIDDLING WITH THE GUN! Put the thing in the holster and don't play with it. IF you need it, draw it out and only when it's on target should your finger be inside of the trigger guard.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

As noted by many already in this thread....Practice.
Practice carrying around the house...
Practice carrying when doing everyday chores....
Practice carrying when doing the things that you do all throughout your work day....
Practice carrying when using the bathroom / restroom ...

Ensure that your firearm is empty and again , practice...
Practice drawing and re-holstering your firearm.
Practice carrying , drawing and re-holstering , with the different clothes that you wear....
Practice from drawing your firearm in different positions like sitting vs. standing....

And also noted by many ....
Don't fiddle with your firearm when carryiing.

As a side note to that....
Buy a good gun belt and holster .....please understand that this will cost money ...Quality gun belts and holsters are spendy.
And you will do a lot of trial and error to find the ones that work for you.


Be aware of your surroundings and the people in it...
For instance :
Some friends / folks might be "huggers"....and a hug can easily turn into a oops , what is that...what just happened....
If you are carrying.

And finally....
No matter what "safeties " are on and used with a firearm....keep your finger off the trigger till you are ready to shoot...
And....always be aware of where your muzzle is pointing .
Andy

 

[Mikej]

@NoLimePlease
Any time you want to come over here and fondle/wear around/function test, with dummy rounds, you are welcomed to with... a Ruger SP101 (revolver), Ruger LC9, Sig Sauer 938, Ruger SR9C, S&W Shield. Have holsters too. Oh. also have a S&W M36 Detective Special.

 

[washagonian]

Back then fanny packs were everywhere and nobody really thought one might contain a gun. These days I believe that most people assume there is a gun in there and I wouldn't consider it a "good" option

Back in the 1990's and 2000''s I often carried my S&W 3913 and then my G26 in a fanny pack. I probably wore a fanny pack beyond the time when it dropped out of style/favor (early to mid 2000's). It slowly became more "uncomfortable" walking around with a fanny pack on when 95% of dudes were no longer wearing them. But that carry option with my break away fanny pack designed for concealed carry was just so comfortable and convenient.

When I finally discontinued carrying via fanny pack was in 2010 after a casual conversation I had with a guy at Home Depot. We were waiting in the product return line. He gave me a snarky smile and commented on my "nice fanny pack". It was sort of obvious that he was dubious of its purpose. When I acknowledged his compliment I said, "yeah, lots of room for all my stuff". He then leaned into me and whispered something to the effect of "yeah, personal protection is important," with a wink-wink, nudge-nudge type of attitude.

I don't know if the guy was a fellow concealed carrier, or not. But when you get clocked like that, it makes you think. After that I went back to untucked shirts and OWB.

Just my opinion and what works for me.

TWYLALTR.

Cheers.

 

[GrayGoose]

I thought this was going to be a thread about SIGs.

 

[dangerranger60]

If you have not bought a gun yet, nearly every range has a trainer that offers a "Know your gun or Handgun Familiarity " class. They all teach safety, handling, loading and unloading. just following the safety rules will prevent negligent discharges. if you look at every ND there was a rule broken.
If you already have a gun , take the class to learn more about your gun.
After that one class you will have enough knowledge to be welcome on most any range out there.
Once you have the basics down its just about practice. DR

 

[Ura-Ki]

Besides making sure your Choice of Carry is actually a known quality piece with enough safety to satisfy your requirements, make sure you have a damn good holster and belt and give your self time to adjust it and your carry position to what is most comfortable. After that, PRACTICE with an empty gun, practice your fundamentals of DRAW, AIM, FIRE, SAFE, RE-HOLSTER whilst also following the fundamentals of safety! ALL Negligent discharges are from YOUR failure to follow one of the 4 safety rules, ALLWAYS! So, put yourself in the mindset of ALWAYS following those rules whilst carrying and you should be golden!

When I Carry my Beretta Brigadier (92 Officers size ), its in De-cocked Double Action Mode, so there is NO safety to get in the way, yet the gun cannot be fired with out deliberate effort on the trigger. This was how we carried the 92's in the Service, and proved to be about as safe as you could get.

When I carry my much preferred 1911, it's cocked and locked with thumb safety ON, when in it's holster, the safety is covered, as is the trigger, and when Drawing, the right thumb naturally falls on the safety and clicks it off before I have "cleared leather" or began to bring the pistol up and get a sight picture.

When I carry my Python, Anaconda or any other revolver, it's always Hammer down to the half cocked position, no safety, and when I draw, my thumb naturally fans the hammer to FULL COCKED, also before clearing leather. I will NOT carry any revolver that doesn't have ether a half cock notch, or a hammer block to allow a full cylinder, PERIOD!

All of the above are very well practiced to the point I don't even think about which piece i'm carrying or it's unique manual of arms, I can draw and engage effectively no matter which option I have on me, because I have practiced so much that its automatic, even to the point my brain is no longer a part of the process, it's all in my hand! The feel of the grip tells my hand instantly which firearm I have and my hand automatically knows what to do when I Draw!

 

[lucusloc]

One thing not mentioned so far and the way I carry is with no round in the chamber but a loaded magazine in the pistol. That's how we carried when I was in the Navy doing roving patrols or standing Quarterdeck watches. . It doesn't matter if it's a Glock , 1911 or anything else I don't chamber a round until I'm ready to shoot. Now I know that there are those that will say I'm doing it wrong but my background is as a competitive shooter , not as a combat pistolero so I run with what I know.

Th reason people say this is a Bad Idea is that not all altercations start at the 30ft mark. Some of them start right in your face, or with a knife already in your arm, or when you find yourself pinned on the ground or against a wall. Carrying chamber empty turns the "draw and fire" process from a one handed affair into a two handed one, and if you do not have that second hand free you are SOL and might as well not even be packing (we can dispense with the arguments of "but what if they run when they see the gun!" Yes that can and does happen -and frequently at that-, but if that is the argument then why not just carry a plastic replica instead of a real gun? The argument here is that you need to pew, not merely look like you can pew).

Yes, there are guns that are unsafe to carry chamber loaded. Old 1911s, some kinds of revolvers and many other pre-50-60s guns fall into this category. If you come from an era where these arms were common I am not surprised you were taught to carry chamber empty, and to be perfectly fair there really was no other choice in the matter; you carried chamber empty or you faces having legitimate ADs (which, at that time would have been fairly considered an ND because you were an idiot to carry in that condition).

But the foibles of the technology of the past should not limit us today. I no longer have to pick up my phone and listen quietly before I dial to clear the party line, I can just pick up and dial. I don't have to constantly check the temp of the fridge to make sure it is correct, I can set it once and trust it will stay there for basically the life of the fridge. Technology improves, and sometimes that improvement brings with it dramatic implications for safety. The same has happened with carry guns; as long as they have a suitable holster they are basically impossible to fire while they are in one, every bit as much as the older, less safe guns sitting chamber empty.

I am not going to tell you you have to carry differently, just like I will not tell anyone they have to carry a cartridge of a certain power. Some gun is better than no gun. You may indeed find yourself in that 30ft running start self defense situation where a drew-and-rack drill works perfectly. But you also might not, and that is the part I worry about. I am going to tell you you really should carefully consider learning a new manual of arms. The guns are out there, hell if you have a relatively new carry gun I bet you already own it. There is no other reason than habit to carry chamber empty, and my personal feeling is that will be a poor excuse if you ever find yourself pinned to the wall of some train stop, only able to get one hand free and trying to somehow find some surface to press-rack off of to get your gun in play before things get really bad.

Not when all it would take to avoid that situation is to learn a new, simpler manual of arms;

Load gun safely, stuff into safe holster, leave it there forever (only remove for maintenance, training or if you need it for real.)

The only thing you need to sort out past that is safe storage when it is off your body. Since it will be loaded it may need to be somewhere locked, or it may just be by your bedside doing double duty as your bump-in-the-night gun. But you can rest assure that as long as it is still stuffed securely in its holster it is still safe regardless of your storage options. Modern guns are safe in their holsters.

 

[NeoBlackdog]

The best safety is the one between your ears. I regularly carry a Glock 23 and have for over a decade. If you don't pull the trigger it doesn't go bang.

 

[thorborg]

Negligent, is not a mechanical malfunction, so is preventable.
Its a poor carpenter who blames his tools.

 

[Spitpatch]

Mechanical device plus Human interaction equals eventual failure.

 

[orygun]

Mechanical device plus Human interaction equals eventual failure.

I don't know if I should laugh or cry at that statement. Absolutely true.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Mechanical device plus Human interaction equals eventual failure.

That made my dick hurt.

 

[Ura-Ki]

That made my dick hurt.

Switch Hands?

 

[oremike]

lucusloc

, feel better, good. I'm glad you got that all out of your system. I took what all you said under advisement and then considered the source and will continue to do as I do.