Turning 21 and looking to get my ccp

[ilikegunspdx]

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[eustace_stelio]

Bottom line is that .380 can'not blow the lungs out of the body.
You'll need to go with a larger cartridge.

/thread

Unless you put a pistol brace on it. Then even a .380 is equivalent to a 300blk.

 

[OldBroad44]

Play

I took a tac med class several years ago. The instructor was a ER Doctor and prior Green Beret medic in the Middle East. He showed some pretty interesting data on wound channels in regards to 9mm, 40 SW and 45acp. It boiled down to none of them were significantly different. So I've never really been concerned about one caliber or the other I would just assume have more bullets to fight my way to a rifle. Rifle being a considerable better man stopper than any pistol caliber.

Military ammo is normally full metal jacketed. And semiautomatic ammo is always somewhat round nosed. A round nosed non expanding bullet tends to make a slit in soft flesh and zip thru doing little damage. The .45acp presumably makes a slightly wider slit than a 9 mm. This wouldn't look like a dramatic difference in an autopsy. It may be a dramatic difference in one-shot instant incapacitation. Or not. Impressions from autopsies are just one type of data. Not the Ultimate Answer.

I've heard that business about "pistol is just a way to fight my way to a rifle" so often I'm feeling tired of it. We're nearly all civilians here now, even the vets. Cops and active service military excepted. When we civilians are out doing CC in public we can't do it with a rifle and there is no rifle handy to fight our way to. Sure a few real fanatics may have a rifle in their car or truck ready for action if they could fight their way to it. But how many ever have? I've never seen any report of a good guy civilian using his pistol to fight his way to his rifle, then shooting bad guy or bear with rifle. He either solves the problem with whatever he was carrying, whether rifle or pistol. Or failed to. There isnt time to have a shootout with bad guy and then run to rifle and have another shootout. Not even if its a farmer who carries a concealed pistol outdoors but has a rifle next to living room door. Or a hunter in camp who leaves rifle in tent but gets attacked by bear while going to see a man about a dog. (taking a whizz) Most civilian gun-involved encounters don't last very long. Somebody gets shot or bad guy runs. And we civilians are legally on thin ice if we run to our house or car where we could have broken off fight and instead reemergence with a rifle and continue the fight. That continuation might be considered a second phase in which we were the attacker.

Cops, on the other hand, can do a routine traffic stop, find themselves in a pistol fight, run back to squad car and get shotgun, and continue fight. Call for backup ending up with multiple cops with various weapons all firing at bad guy. Huge escallations. Legitimately legal for cops.

 

[thekingoftroy]

Play

Military ammo is normally full metal jacketed. And semiautomatic ammo is always somewhat round nosed. A round nosed non expanding bullet tends to make a slit in soft flesh and zip thru doing little damage. The .45acp presumably makes a slightly wider slit than a 9 mm. This wouldn't look like a dramatic difference in an autopsy. It may be a dramatic difference in one-shot instant incapacitation. Or not. Impressions from autopsies are just one type of data. Not the Ultimate Answer.

I've heard that business about "pistol is just a way to fight my way to a rifle" so often I'm feeling tired of it. We're nearly all civilians here now, even the vets. Cops and active service military excepted. When we civilians are out doing CC in public we can't do it with a rifle and there is no rifle handy to fight our way to. Sure a few real fanatics may have a rifle in their car or truck ready for action if they could fight their way to it. But how many ever have? I've never seen any report of a good guy civilian using his pistol to fight his way to his rifle, then shooting bad guy or bear with rifle. He either solves the problem with whatever he was carrying, whether rifle or pistol. Or failed to. There isnt time to have a shootout with bad guy and then run to rifle and have another shootout. Not even if its a farmer who carries a concealed pistol outdoors but has a rifle next to living room door. Or a hunter in camp who leaves rifle in tent but gets attacked by bear while going to see a man about a dog. (taking a whizz) Most civilian gun-involved encounters don't last very long. Somebody gets shot or bad guy runs. And we civilians are legally on thin ice if we run to our house or car where we could have broken off fight and instead reemergence with a rifle and continue the fight. That continuation might be considered a second phase in which we were the attacker.

Cops, on the other hand, can do a routine traffic stop, find themselves in a pistol fight, run back to squad car and get shotgun, and continue fight. Call for backup ending up with multiple cops with various weapons all firing at bad guy. Huge escallations. Legitimately legal for cops.

I appreciate your perspective. I am speaking from my own Law Enforcement experience. It's hard to switch your thinking to a civilian world.

Also I have both a pistol and rifle at home. The "fight my way to the rifle" scenario could and may apply. My thoughts are just because you think the gun fight is over doesn't mean you're not still in danger. Multiple attackers, bad guy still have some fight in him, you need to corral your loved ones in a safe spot, bad guy comes back after being shot at or shot etc. etc.

My original point really was that a handgun round in 9mm, 40SW or 45ACP is typically not a good man stopper so carry what you're comfortable with.

 

[kopcicle]

I didn't read the whole thing

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[DeanMk]

TLDR Warning Final paragraph would have been enough but I was watching paint dry and you all became the victims of my propensity and proclivity to pontificate profusely.

Masad Ayoob began a study investigating, for lack of a better term, real world terminal ballistics. As far as I know he continues to update those findings. You can find the data referenced in several of his books. Ayoob didn't stop at reading police and coroner's reports. He attended countless autopsies to see for himself. The only bias he presented was indicative of sample size. The only assumptions drawn were the similarity of 38 Super to 357 Magnum with similar projectiles. The only conclusions drawn were that .38 Special is not 357 Magnum and 9mm isn't either. There were other minor assumptions made as well but the above nearly covers it.

Ayoob never succumbed to preconceived beliefs, hearsay, "everybody knows that..." ., or searched for data to support his own conclusions. He just went after the facts.

The 125gr Semi Jacketed Truncated Cone Exposed Lead Flat Point (STCLFP) was, within the confines of observable data a clear leader. First generation hollow points followed closely. Both were at or near 1,300 Ft/Sec.

First generation 9mm hollow points followed admittedly due to their large data sample. Their FMJ siblings nearly fall off the chart, not because of a lack of data but because they don't incapacitate.

One of the assumptions Ayoob made was for the small sample size of the 38 Super. When appropriate hollow points were employed the cartridge performed well. However, most of the data was for FMJ and resembled the 9mm FMJ data.
The 38 Super with hollow point was lumped in with the 9mm and not the 357 Magnum.

Curiously the 45ACP suffers from not only a small sample size but understandably 80 years of mythos at the time of Ayoob's original study. Again first generation hollow points were just coming into vouge and the bulk of the data was for FMJ.
Although the 45ACP "never gets any smaller" it never gets any faster. Heavy clothing alone could reduce its effectiveness. The only reason it beats out the 38 Special is its physical and sample size.

With the huge historical sample size for the .38 Special came the penetration vs expansion observation and the "pass through" allowing two holes for hydraulic fluid to pour out. The difficult distinction here is that effective hollow points for .38 Special velocities had just came into common use and a distinction needed to made between then.

.380ACP was the dividing line between the major and sub calibers. The now nominal distinction between FMJ and hollow points applies. Cross the "T" and "Dot the eye" (sic) become the predominate method of incapacitation.

32 Caliber anything begins the small sample size, near ineffective sub calibers. Cross the "T" and "Dot the eye" are now mandatory for incapacitation with the added "contact discharge wound" becoming a regular occurrence. It seems that the owners of these sub caliber weapons knew their limitations.

.25ACP actually had a statistical presence although not a very effective one. Most incapacitation and fatalities occurred either by way of Cross the "T" and "Dot the eye", contact discharge to the head and neck area, or coincidental contact with vital organs.

Shotguns, understandably, got their own category.

All others were a bunch of one of foreign calibers, black powder balls and bullets and a variety of improvised weapons.

Now my disclaimer. The above is from memory because I no longer have that publication. I did read and re-read it many times over the years. I don't attribute any conclusion to Masad Ayoob but to my own poor memory. Anyone that cares to correct or elaborate is more than welcome.

The second part of my disclaimer is that I've seen far more than the average number of bullet wounds in my life. Still nothing I've seen even begins to compare to Ayoob's near obsessive collection of data.

This leads to expected generalizations.
Carry the largest caliber you are comfortable with. This includes your ability to carry as well as train with and hit what you intend to hit. Too often this can result in difficult to conceal, difficult to manage recoil, and near impossible to control for follow up shots.

Conversely a weapon that is easy to carry and conceal may be near impossible to train with, not have nearly enough grip area for control, and be capacity limited. Anything that identifies as a "micro nine" falls into this category.

Just get a Glock. I'm of two minds here. Amongst the numerical soup that is the ubiquitous polymer pistol(s) there is probably a pistol and caliber that works for anyone. Aside from my personal feelings and experience with Glock I feel that this option has the effect of unintentionally limiting not only a good choice but the best choice.

Sub calibers, 32ACP and below. Just stop. Get some help.

Finally, it doesn't matter what I do. I'm a dinosaur, set in my ways and dedicated to training with my choices. There it is. Make a decision and exhaustively train despite ammunition availability and cost.


Note: .40 Auto was not included because its sample size is still small although growing. Additionally it's effectiveness is buried in confusing and contradictory data.

Large bore and magnum revolvers were excluded because of vanishing small sample size and diminishing effectiveness in comparison to modern high capacity pistols. Their effectiveness is not questioned only because if a projectile from these weapons is accurately placed the results are predictable and devastating.

Some of this data, plus other additional data could be backed up by Gun Sam's youtube channel.

https://www.youtube.com/@GunSam/videos

 

[OldBroad44]

The original and also the best IMO. G17 can do it all.

Except get reliable instant incapacitation on human attacker or cougar except from a shot to brain or spine. Also except can't get reliable instant incapacitation on an attacking bear or boar even with a shot to brain because doesn't reliably penetrate bear or boar skull from frontal shot. Manufacturers don't even make bear loads in 9mm. Also isn't accurate enough for handgun hunting even small game at handgun hunting ordinary distances. People mostly use .22, .38, 357mag, 10mm for that. Some 1911 nuts use .45acp but unless game is very close it sees bullet coming and dodges. Just kidding. Also 9mm isn't accurate or powerful enough to handgun hunt deer or black bear, for which people mostly use .357mag, 45 Colt, 10mm, 41mag, .44sp, 44mag. And for hunting elk or moose people mostly use .44mag, .454 Casull and up. Also G17 isn't accurate enough for competitive target shooting. And on bowling pin shoots, 9mm counts only as a minor caliber. Even the .45acp counts as a major caliber.

What's good about a G17? Its loose as a goose. It will fire every time even if you've just dropped it in the mud. What's bad about the G17? Its less good at hitting stuff than one might like, and when something is hit the something might not even notice.

Think of the 9mm G17 as a sort of glorified .22 target pistol, only ugly and inaccurate.

 

[DeanMk]

Not a Glock fan, but if I MUST carry one, please make it a Glock 22, which is not a .22.

 

[DirectDrive]

Except get reliable instant incapacitation on human attacker or cougar except from a shot to brain or spine. Also except can't get reliable instant incapacitation on an attacking bear or boar even with a shot to brain because doesn't reliably penetrate bear or boar skull from frontal shot. Manufacturers don't even make bear loads in 9mm. Also isn't accurate enough for handgun hunting even small game at handgun hunting ordinary distances. People mostly use .22, .38, 357mag, 10mm for that. Some 1911 nuts use .45acp but unless game is very close it sees bullet coming and dodges. Just kidding. Also 9mm isn't accurate or powerful enough to handgun hunt deer or black bear, for which people mostly use .357mag, 45 Colt, 10mm, 41mag, .44sp, 44mag. And for hunting elk or moose people mostly use .44mag, .454 Casull and up. Also G17 isn't accurate enough for competitive target shooting. And on bowling pin shoots, 9mm counts only as a minor caliber. Even the .45acp counts as a major caliber.

What's good about a G17? Its loose as a goose. It will fire every time even if you've just dropped it in the mud. What's bad about the G17? Its less good at hitting stuff than one might like, and when something is hit the something might not even notice.

Think of the 9mm G17 as a sort of glorified .22 target pistol, only ugly and inaccurate.

I agree with all of this except the accuracy part.
I've dabbled quite a bit with Glocks and in my experience, they are quite accurate.
3 are parts builds and one store-bought.
The trigger takes some getting used to if you're coming from hammer guns.

 

[Member 53328]

I agree with all of this except the accuracy part.
I've dabbled quite a bit with Glocks and in my experience, they are quite accurate.
3 are parts builds and one store-bought.
The trigger takes some getting used to if you're coming from hammer guns.

In my experience (I mainly carry Glock) they are very accurate. With a RDS at 100+ meters I can hit 12X12 steel plates easily.

 

[OrPackrat]

Turning 21 soon, and in todays world im going to immediately go to classes to get my conceal permit. Main question i have, however, is what gun and caliber i should get for my first ccw

If you know someone that has a selection of firearms, it would be good to go out shooting and try some firearms.

I'm in the Salem area and if your near, I'd be willing to bring you out to the range I go too and let you try some.

I spend most my Saturdays at Lincoln City Sporting Goods, if your out that way, stop in, you can hold a variety of firearms to see what fits you better.

9mm is the recommended caliber for most, easy to control, effective, better round capacity, inexpensive, etc...

 

[kopcicle]

@Patrickstar26
90 plus posts.
I really hope you continue to share your journey. Either here or in another thread let us know how it goes.
Other than my own curiosity it would be a great help to others.

 

[dangerranger60]

One thing to remember is outside of police and military action, extended gunfights are very rare.
I carry a 5 shot snub nose revolver. It took a while to learn to shoot it well. And I have to shoot often to keep that up. but for a guy that likes to shoot that is not a bad thing.
My view of it is I will use it to break contact with a BG. either he will lose interest and move on, it will force him to let me and mine to move on, or he will get shot. I don't care if it will stop a tank, I don't care if it will shoot through bullet proof barriers, Etc... I like it because it's easy to keep on me at all times!
As long as you are willing to put in the time and effort to shoot it well, a small gun works well for the average defender.
It's not the gun I'd pick when kicking doors or searching buildings, but for a gun strictly to get me out of a tight spot they work just fine! DR

 

[DeanMk]

@Patrickstar26
90 plus posts.
I really hope you continue to share your journey. Either here or in another thread let us know how it goes.
Other than my own curiosity it would be a great help to others.

Patrickstar26 Joined on June 15th, same day he posted his question.
Hasn't been back since June 30.
This doesn't look good.
Your request may well have fallen on deaf ears.
Time will tell whether we get an update or not.

 

[solv3nt]

Patrickstar26 Joined on June 15th, same day he posted his question.
Hasn't been back since June 30.
This doesn't look good.
Your request may well have fallen on deaf ears.
Time will tell whether we get an update or not.

Has @Nosferatu gotten a SA only Beretta 92x?

 

[Nosferatu]

Has @Nosferatu gotten a SA only Beretta 92x?

No.

A pig hunt in TexAss took priority.