International Lithuania bans possession of guns by Russian, Belarusian nationals

[wired]

And here I am thinking that it was 'cause brats, pizza and beer are considered All-American, while seaweed and raw fish aren't.

I will never support the suspension of people's civil rights under the guise of public safety.

YMMV

Yeah, my moms family is essentially 100% German from numerous immigration waves going back to the early 1700's. I don't ramember any of her relatives being interned in WW2 other than 2 of her dads cousins laying in the bottom of the Arizona.

 

[RedRover]

Yeah, my moms family is essentially 100% German from numerous immigration waves going back to the early 1700's. I don't ramember any of her relatives being interned in WW2 other than 2 of her dads cousins laying in the bottom of the Arizona.

A number of Americans of Japanese descent are also resting in European soils.

 

[gmerkt]

I have an issue if they're taking firearms from law abiding residents on the premise they could engage in subversive activities.

"Citizens" being the operative word in this matter. I have no problem restricting the rights of non-citizens, resident or otherwise. Here or there. Resident non-citizens shouldn't have (nor expect) the same rights, just my opinion.

It seems a few here are okay with confiscation if it suits their political ideologies of whom the " enemy" is.

It's not about ideology. It's about national security.

Question:

Do you imagine that an American or Lithuanian is allowed to possess a gun in Russia?

 

[_Will_]

I think you have it wrong.
It's about foreign nationals.
Not Lithuanian citizens.

From the article

"
The new law stipulates that permanent residents shall be allowed to acquire and possess weapons in Lithuania, except for Russian and Belarusian nationals who do not have Lithuanian citizenship.

People who already possess such weapons will have to give them up within one year of the law's entry into force by selling, converting, or handing them over to the police, and their weapon permits will be revoked. Failure to do so will result in confiscation."

I've read it numerous times. This is retroactive confiscation against resident aliens of Russian, Belarussians. According to Lithuanian law they allow for resident aliens to posses firearms much like we do in the US granted they're cleared. So this akin to confiscating legally owned firearms from resident aliens.

Lithuanian law

"The minimum age to own firearms is 23 for self-defense handguns, 21 for semi-automatic rifles, 18 years for semi-automatic shotguns and smooth-bore self-defense weapons and 16 years for sporting firearms. Every permanent resident of Lithuania of minimum age who passes the examination has the right to possess firearms for self-defense purposes. Article 12(5) forbids police from refusing granting license without valid reason. Any such refusal may be appealed in court."

 

[American123]

Shows you how fleeting the notion of citizenship is. Your'e a citizen until someone else decides you are not.

I think what it shows is that during warfare, people try to reduce the enemy's ability to wage war.

You can be a citizen of the U.S. and still be a threat to it. Let's also consider this "what if," had the Japanese not hit Pearl Harbor would have there been Japanese internment camps in the U.S.? Unlikely, - It's not like it was just randomly decided one day "hey let's round up some Japanese Americans for no reason and keep them secured" - there were events that preceded that action.

We can go round and round about what is right and citizenship, but at the end of the day the country was at war with Imperial Japan and decisions were made in relation to that.

 

[bcp]

I'm curious as to why American citizens of German and Italian descent weren't afforded the same hospitality?

[soapbox OFF]

They were:

From:
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...italian-and-german-internment-camps-in-the-us

"By January 1942, at least 600,000 Italians and Italian Americans, some of them legal residents or even U.S. citizens, were classified as "enemy aliens." About 1,600 Italian citizens, among them my great-grandfather, were put into internment camps in Missoula, Montana, and Ellis Island. As a result of security concerns in coastal areas, about 10,000 Italian-Americans were forced to relocate from their homes along the California coast and move inland.


Also, 11,000 people of German ancestry were put into internment camps, many of them American-born children. In addition to Germans, people of Czech, Romanian, Bulgarian, and Hungarian descent were also interned."

Bruce

 

[Yarome]

I'm curious as to why American citizens of German and Italian descent weren't afforded the same hospitality?

[soapbox OFF]

I never said it was fair, did I?

Unless you understand the Japanese culture of the time, the strong loyalties to family/society and the concept of being a subject of an empire lead by a "God on earth"... then realize everyone did not simply abandon all societal concepts just because they where magically reborn when their feet hit U.S. soil... I can't really help.

There was a very clear danger of... well... even to call them "radical" would be tame. A danger of fanatical activity against the U.S. interests.

Even in the U.S. most Japanese lived it tight knit Japanese communities and were still taught and raised by the same ideals as their forefathers. One or two generations removed does not wipe out all racial identity.

Even today, I don't believe hardly any Americans have much understanding of what Japanese society is like. Other countries are viewed through "American" eyes and ideals. Not criticizing, it's just a simple fact of human nature. You go with what you know.

Were you aware that even today, in most parts of Japan, if... say a 40 year old married man with children is offered a better job in another city of any distance away would still require his parents and family approval before being able to accept the job and move?

Unheard of!! Right!!?? Not at all! And perfectly normal. That's after how many decades of reform, progress and social development since WWII??

All things considered, and with all due respect to the citizens of German or Italian descent... as western cultures... they would have not posed nearly the same level of threat.

 

[DirectDrive]

From the article

"
The new law stipulates that permanent residents shall be allowed to acquire and possess weapons in Lithuania, except for Russian and Belarusian nationals who do not have Lithuanian citizenship.

People who already possess such weapons will have to give them up within one year of the law's entry into force by selling, converting, or handing them over to the police, and their weapon permits will be revoked. Failure to do so will result in confiscation."

I've read it numerous times. This is retroactive confiscation against resident aliens of Russian, Belarussians. According to Lithuanian law they allow for resident aliens to posses firearms much like we do in the US granted they're cleared. So this akin to confiscating legally owned firearms from resident aliens.

I think they should be disarmed and under watch.
No good reason to take the chance on foreign nationals from hostile states having firearms in your country.
If they don't like it, then they can be deported.
The Baltic states and Poland are in a tough place geographically if the war spreads.
I can't blame them for getting ready.

 

[wired]

I think what it shows is that during warfare, people try to reduce the enemy's ability to wage war.

You can be a citizen of the U.S. and still be a threat to it. Let's also consider this "what if," had the Japanese not hit Pearl Harbor would have there been Japanese internment camps in the U.S.? Unlikely, - It's not like it was just randomly decided one day "hey let's round up some Japanese Americans for no reason and keep them secured" - there were events that preceded that action.

We can go round and round about what is right and citizenship, but at the end of the day the country was at war with Imperial Japan and decisions were made in relation to that.

We were also at war with Germany. Was Lindbergh detained or Henry Ford ? Both of whom were pro Nazi prior to the war. How many of the pre war Bund members? There were a LOT of them. Skated right through because they weren't yellow. Rationalize it all you want but the Japanese AMERICANS were detained because they were easy to pick out and they didn't raise a fuss. Korematsu V US ranks up there with Plessy V Ferguson in the SCOTUS worst hits category. The Constitution is more than the 2nd amendment,

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Something to consider here....

Lithuania ain't the United States.
Their government does not work under or need to abide by our Constitution or our Bill of Rights.

What was done to those Americans of Japanese , German or other "Axis" background during WWII...
Doesn't really apply here..Lithuania , as noted above is not the United States.

Please note that I am not saying what is "right" or what is "wrong" here.

I am saying that to compare what is going on now in Lithuania , to what the happen here in the US in the 1940's....
Needs to be seen as two different things.
Since the Rights of an American citizen may not be the same as the Rights of a Lithuania citizen or foreign resident.
Andy

 

[Yarome]

We were also at war with Germany. Was Lindbergh detained or Henry Ford ? Both of whom were pro Nazi prior to the war. How many of the pre war Bund members? There were a LOT of them. Skated right through because they weren't yellow. Rationalize it all you want but the Japanese AMERICANS were detained because they were easy to pick out and they didn't raise a fuss. Korematsu V US ranks up there with Plessy V Ferguson in the SCOTUS worst hits category. The Constitution is more than the 2nd amendment,

Case in point.... Making historical judgments with no personal frame of reference or understanding of the cultural and societal factors in play at the time.

One point to ponder... I don't seem to recall the Germans or the Italians making a sudden and suprise attack on U.S. soil, but my memory might not be what it used to be and I just forgot.

Probably had nothing to do with anti-Japanese sentiment at the time anyway... right?

 

[wired]

Case in point.... Making historical judgments with no personal frame of reference or understanding of the cultural and societal factors in play at the time.

One point to ponder... I don't seem to recall the Germans or the Italians making a sudden and suprise attack on U.S. soil, but my memory might not be what it used to be and I just forgot.

Probably had nothing to do with anti-Japanese sentiment at the time anyway... right?

Did the people of Japanese descent who were American citizens bomb Pear Harbor? Yeah, the Germans had been sinking American ships for years and Declared war on us not the other way around

 

[Yarome]

Did the people of Japanese descent who were American citizens bomb Pear Harbor? Yeah, the Germans had been sinking American ships for years and Declared war on us not the other way around

That's so far out there it doesn't deserve serious comment, but no matter... As Andy subtely reminded us... this has strayed way off topic and I certainly helped derail it.

I'm repenting and confining any additional comment to the Lithuania ban issue.

I still agree that they are doing the right thing and see no issue with banning firearms from non-citizen Russians or Belarusians. Tensions are too great in the region and it's well within their countries best self interest. If for no other reason than to curve weapons trafficking through their borders.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Meanwhile the southern US border..

 

[GWS]

The "horror" of what the U.S. did to the U.S. citizen Japanese is largely a U.S. construct in your own history books. Speaking from the other side... war is ugly. Innocents can be caught up in it. But make no mistake that many Japanese understood that it was a necessary precaution, lives were saved and we didn't want any U.S. casualties to occur due to national zealots activities any more than any pink skinned U.S. citizens wanted that.

No one liked it. Abuses and mistreatment occured. That's inevitable when people are placed in power over others... but make no mistake too that not everyone in those camps were "innocents" and had the potential to do great harm to a country we call home. We knew that even better than you.

Just as most Japanese understand the necessity of the atomic bombs and know, as horiffic as they where, that those actions saved millions of lives.

[soapbox OFF]


I say... good on Lithuania! They "get it".

No.
You don't do that bubblegum to your citizens.
Ever.

 

[GWS]

Looking back in time at history and criticizing it with today's standards is unfair.

The empire of Japan was an enemy of the U.S., how to divide that line between enemy and citizen of the U.S. was clearly a difficult situation. In some ways it was the more peaceful option, I'm sure, because the anti-Japanese hatred would have culminated in violence against Japanese-Americans.

I wonder if the Japanese in U.S. internment camps during WWII had it as difficult as the people raped, tortured, burned, and killed by Japanese soldiers during their conquest through Asia after Pearl Harbor.

I'm sure those people would have considered a U.S. internment camp a vacation stay by comparison.

No.
This is a shallow and weak justification.
What does Japanese barbarism have to do with the way the United States should treat its own citizens?
Should white subway riders in New York be locked up because black homeless guys are pushing them onto the rails?
You don't lock up your own citizens because some criminal idiot might do violence.
The internment was wrong.
Period.

 

[homeuser6]

Russian and Belarusian nationals who do not have Lithuanian citizenship.

 

[PrDubi]

I think you have it wrong.
It's about foreign nationals.
Not Lithuanian citizens.

It's about foreign nationals, dude.

I've read further into the laws and I have Estonian and Lits and Lat friends. You would be surprised on the amount of cyber warfare, espionage, and subterfuge that Russians have done in the Baltics. THEY GAIN ABSOLUTELY NOTHING aligning themselves and maintaining Russian citizenship of which many decided to do. As I said earlier, they are colonist and occupiers that came with an occupying army that none of the baltic citizens asked for.
They make up almost 10 to 25 percent of the population THROUGH NO FAULT AT ALL WITH THE ORIGINAL BALTIC citizens being asked if they should stay when their occupying army left. As I said before, the Russians asked Hungary if 100k of their citizens can stay in Hungary when the army left in 1991. Hungary said NO. They came with an occupying army and virtually none of them made efforts to learn the language, culture, and way of life in Hungary other than WALL OFF their entire city making it ONLY for Soviet citizens.

They have a right to protect their country and they have given tons of leeway for these Russian and BelaRus occupiers to learn the language, LEARN THE WAY OF LIFE and obtain citizenship. Guess what most CHOOSE?


Even here in Hungary where I live part of the year, we have clownish Orckish Russians buying questionable stuff to send home for the war effort including body armor, night vision and thermals.

I question their allegiances until the end of time if they can't even think of the thousand fold benefits of being an EU citizen, the rights, the wages, the pension system.....if all they keep wanting to drink is that toxic Russian nationalist koolaid.

Even here in Oregon... Woodburn of all places , I've seen Orckish clowns with big Z letters on their cars and trucks.

Then again come around to Cinco de Mayo and their are more Mexican flags than Americans....so it goes many ways.

 

[raftman]

It's about foreign nationals, dude.

I've read further into the laws and I have Estonian and Lits and Lat friends. You would be surprised on the amount of cyber warfare, espionage, and subterfuge that Russians have done in the Baltics. THEY GAIN ABSOLUTELY NOTHING aligning themselves and maintaining Russian citizenship of which many decided to do. As I said earlier, they are colonist and occupiers that came with an occupying army that none of the baltic citizens asked for.

It is no greater than illegals here trying to buy guns or felons or even terrorist.

They have a right to protect their country.

Even here in Hungary where I live, we have clownish Orckish Russians buying questionable stuff to send home for the war effort including body armor, night vision and thermals.

I question their allegiances until the end of time if they can't even think of the thousand fold benefits of being an EU citizen, the rights, the wages, the pension system.....if all they keep wanting to drink is that toxic Russian nationalist koolaid.

Even in Woodburn, I've seen Orckish clowns with big Z letters on their cars and trucks.

Actually in the US, we do allow non-citizens to purchase firearms as well, so long as they are legal residents. To automatically equate a certain nationalities to "illegals, felons, or terrorists" is ironically how actual "orckish clowns" think.

The "citizen vs non-citizen" is a cope by the intellectually dishonest. For instance, even we citizens were denied all sorts of rights during the rona response, which proves that the distinction is meaningless to those who believe rights come from governments, which are then free to take them away when they see fit. "Oh they could take rights from non-citizens but not from citizens!" Really? Does anyone living in the last 100 years actually believe that?

We also ought to consider that as gun-owners, we too are equated with felons and terrorists… so applying the label to people who haven't actually done anything wrong, and taking away their rights preemptively, ought to be repugnant to freedom-loving people. If it's not, then one should probably not consider oneself a freedom-loving person.

 

[Yarome]

Where does one even begin with something like that(??)




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