Insert prefered acronym drone use

[Yarome]

What the correct acronym for "shoot the bubbleguming things down"?

I have no issue at all with people flying them in appropriate places. But they fly over public parks or poeples houses and literally ruin the day for everyone underneath. I wish it were legal to shoot them down in those cases.

As a drone operator, I obviously view it much differently. People have no issue with planes overflying their homes, parks, etc with potentially high tech surveillance equipment, but they get ALL bunged up over a drone?

It's not as if drone operators are fixating videoing individual people, and even if a drone is loitering it's not as if you're unaware of it, right?

Personally, I think it's comical that a person can be so perturbed about a drone overflight, but not have a care in the world that they are constantly surrounded by a sea of HD video cameras in practically every persons pocket that may be filming them at any moment... that they are likely completely unaware of... and potentially present in every single "private" place. Every restaurant, store, public bathroom, changing room, while driving, doctors office, while getting your hair cut, etc, etc. City camera's filming you, your neighbors door cam while you're walking your dog in your curlers.

Complete non-issue, hu(?)

 

[ilikegunspdx]

As a drone operator, I obviously view it much differently. People have no issue with planes overflying their homes, parks, etc with potentially high tech surveillance equipment, but they get ALL bunged up over a drone?

It's not as if drone operators are fixating videoing individual people, and even if a drone is loitering it's not as if you're unaware of it, right?

Personally, I think it's comical that a person can be so perturbed about a drone overflight, but not have a care in the world that they are constantly surrounded by a sea of HD video cameras in practically every persons pocket that may be filming them at any moment... that they are likely completely unaware of... and potentially present in every single "private" place. Every restaurant, store, public bathroom, changing room, while driving, doctors office, while getting your hair cut, etc, etc. City camera's filming you, your neighbors door cam while you're walking your dog in your curlers.

Complete non-issue, hu(?)

Drones in public places where they bother people bubbleguming suck. BZzzzzz is all you can hear. They are bubbleguming loud and ruin everyone's day below. Last time I was at a big park everyone was flipping off the drone and yelling at it. They are horrible. If I could shoot them down legally I would. Drones out where no one is around of course who cares that's totally different. Just like if person had loud rc plane buzzing the park. It's outlawed in most communities cuz it will drive you nuts! It has nothing to do with cameras.

 

[Yarome]

It's outlawed in most communities cuz it will drive you nuts! It has nothing to do with cameras.

That's a big misconception. They are not outlawed in any community anywhere in the U.S.. Public airspace cannot be governed/regulated by community, city or state "laws" or statutes. A property owner can't even claim "trespassing" as they don't "own" the airspace above their property.

The only thing that can be regulated or "banned" is where a drone touches the ground during takeoff or landing.

I don't fully disagree with the nuisance factor though. Some drone operators don't give a flip about common curtesy and do nothing to mitigate their drone noise by staying at altitude and within a periphery flight path, but then again.... that's just being courteous and there is no law saying they "have to". I don't see that any different than people with smartphone camera's not using any common curtesy in filming whatever they feel like in public spaces... and posting it to the internet without permission.

I don't know where you live, and I suspect you may be overexaggerating to make your personal point more valid, but I "can" say... of the countless 100's of hours I've overflown public spaces (including parks, sporting events, public gatherings, etc) the number of times I've observed anyone on the ground reacting by flying the bird or trying to throw something at my drone I can count on two hands.

The most frequent response, if any, is people waving or pulling out their cameras to film it... with smiles on their faces.

One of the most common reactions I get is people wanting to watch my flight screen, ask questions because they have thought of getting a drone themselves, and I VERY frequently get people that ask if I can.... IE., video their kids playing, someone wanting to perform some stunt on a bike/skateboard/windsurfing/etc... and then email them the footage.

In a park, drone noise is momentary and I don't notice too many people getting bungholed about it. To me, what's much more annoying is when people are blasting their crap music nonstop, leaving trash or feeling they have the right to occupy large portions of a public place for their loud obnoxious "get togethers"... light up their barbeques without a care where their smoke is blowing... and let's not even talk about a-holes that think it's okay to let their pets off leash or don't feel obligated to pick up their animals crap piles.

In my own neighborhood, I've often had folks jump in their cars and follow my drone back to the landing point. Not a one has ever complained about the drone... however... MANY have made requests. IE., Could I fly over their house and get photos of their roof for them? Could I take some aerial shots of their property they are looking to put up for sale? I've even had people going out of town for extended periods ask if I could check their property and email them.

I'm quite sure there are some that absolutely hate it and truly believe drones are only used for spying through someone's daughter's window, but from my experience, responses to drones has been overwhelmingly more positive.

Drones noise for a few minutes driving someone to want to unleash a hail of lead? Really?? To each their own "peeve". Everyone's entitled

 

[ilikegunspdx]

That's a big misconception. They are not outlawed in any community anywhere in the U.S.. Public airspace cannot be governed/regulated by community, city or state "laws" or statutes. A property owner can't even claim "trespassing" as they don't "own" the airspace above their property.

The only thing that can be regulated or "banned" is where a drone touches the ground during takeoff or landing.

I don't fully disagree with the nuisance factor though. Some drone operators don't give a flip about common curtesy and do nothing to mitigate their drone noise by staying at altitude and within a periphery flight path, but then again.... that's just being courteous and there is no law saying they "have to". I don't see that any different than people with smartphone camera's not using any common curtesy in filming whatever they feel like in public spaces... and posting it to the internet without permission.

I don't know where you live, and I suspect you may be overexaggerating to make your personal point more valid, but I "can" say... of the countless 100's of hours I've overflown public spaces (including parks, sporting events, public gatherings, etc) the number of times I've observed anyone on the ground reacting by flying the bird or trying to throw something at my drone I can count on two hands.

The most frequent response, if any, is people waving or pulling out their cameras to film it... with smiles on their faces.

One of the most common reactions I get is people wanting to watch my flight screen, ask questions because they have thought of getting a drone themselves, and I VERY frequently get people that ask if I can.... IE., video their kids playing, someone wanting to perform some stunt on a bike/skateboard/windsurfing/etc... and then email them the footage.

In a park, drone noise is momentary and I don't notice too many people getting bungholed about it. To me, what's much more annoying is when people are blasting their crap music nonstop, leaving trash or feeling they have the right to occupy large portions of a public place for their loud obnoxious "get togethers"... light up their barbeques without a care where their smoke is blowing... and let's not even talk about a-holes that think it's okay to let their pets off leash or don't feel obligated to pick up their animals crap piles.

In my own neighborhood, I've often had folks jump in their cars and follow my drone back to the landing point. Not a one has ever complained about the drone... however... MANY have made requests. IE., Could I fly over their house and get photos of their roof for them? Could I take some aerial shots of their property they are looking to put up for sale? I've even had people going out of town for extended periods ask if I could check their property and email them.

I'm quite sure there are some that absolutely hate it and truly believe drones are only used for spying through someone's daughter's window, but from my experience, responses to drones has been overwhelmingly more positive.

Drones noise for a few minutes driving someone to want to unleash a hail of lead? Really?? To each their own "peeve". Everyone's entitled

If it was flying over my house I probably would shoot it down. The noise is not momentary in the park at all. The noise is there ruining everyone's day as long as it is up in the air.

 

[Joe13]

If it was flying over my house I probably would shoot it down. The noise is not momentary in the park at all. The noise is there ruining everyone's day as long as it is up in the air.

I feel the same about lawn care equipment and people's kids playing outside.

Idk about Portland but up here even a pellet or paintball gun is considered discharge of a firearm so I wouldn't risk loosing my carry license and guns over a nuisance.

 

[Yarome]

If it was flying over my house I probably would shoot it down. The noise is not momentary in the park at all. The noise is there ruining everyone's day as long as it is up in the air.

Good luck with that!

Illegal discharged of a firearm and destruction of personal property. Considering most drones aren't cheap, that could amount to some pretty serious charges. Anything over $250 damage is a criminal mischief charge and over $750 elevates it to felony criminal mischief. Of course... that's not even considering that any criminal mischief charge, regardless of the $ amount, is automatically elevated to felony level if a deadly weapon is used.

Good luck fighting that in court too. Drones are equipped with cameras and the live video feed is streaming and being saved to the controller device on the ground. Destroying the drone or even recovering the remains yourself doesn't destroy the video evidence on their controller.

Considering most commercial drones have a total flight time of about 20min and typically don't remain stationary... that's a lot more "momentary" than someone blasting their music or the yelling and screaming around a park ... which are vastly more common occurrences than a drone overhead.


ETA: If I only knew where you lived. I have an older drone with a couple cracked motor mounts, the gimble has a slightly bent arm, the camera lens has a scratch. It will still go up in the air though and I certainly wouldn't mind replacing it. Your $5000 check would be a massive upgrade fund, but I'm a pretty nice guy, see no need to involve law enforcement, willing to settle out of court and only take half the statutory fine off ya.

 

[Joe13]

I'm Looking to get into drones. I imagine being capable of remote reconnaissance in a (insert preferred acronym) situation, would be a major force multiplier and asset. I'm looking for something suitable for operation in a semi austere environment. I've done far more research on counter measures and the vulnerability to certain methods of attack than i have the laws thus far (I'll cross that bridge when I get there).

as I understand it, the primary threat is GPS scrambling and spoofing and the less probable threat of directed energy weapons. Additionally I have a surface level understanding of the RF frequency scrambling that a controller would be subject to. What Additional threats or considerations am I missing beyond the obvious like trying to operate with RID?
Like how a drone operating GPS-denied is capable of communication with the operator and how that communication is vulnerable to interception?

And is there anything that exists that can operate in the capacity outlined for between $5k-$10k? I've found a couple like the one linked and another from (I think Autel?), but I'd like to run some thought experiments on threats, considerations, constraints and counter measures.

FLIR Altavian Ion M440 American Made Tactical Quadcopter - 1UP Drones

Rugged, agile, and ready to deploy rapidly, the FLIR ION M440 tactical quadcopter is purpose-built for short-range reconnaissance. The ION is rucksack portable and hand-launched. Built-in daytime and nighttime obstacle avoidance reduce cognitive load for operators in tight, obstructive...

1updrones.com

Some Drone Basic Rules

• You must check your location every time before you fly to make sure you are not in restricted airspace (special occasions and happen)

https://www.faa.gov/uas/getting_started/b4ufly

• If your drones total weight is <250 grams then you do NOT have to register your drone, BUT you DO have to follow all of the same rules as all other drones. Airspace, maximum elevation, line of sight etc.

• Every Drone 250 grams and above has to be registered. This is a simple process.

https://www.droneregistration.com/?gad_source=1

• Take a simple online test called The Recreational UAS Safety Test (TRUST)

The Recreational UAS Safety Test (TRUST)





That should at least get you started - I felt like it was a bit of a chore to do all of the above but it really isn't that hard and the above should have enough info and other links to get you everything you need to fly.







I had the good fortune to have access to a warehouse and learned to 'fly' a tiny drone ($25-$30) inside which you would think is straightforward (it's a heck of a lot easier to do then years ago when I dipped my toe into helicopters) but there are some nuances to it, that for me at least were not intuitive until I got the hang of it). Inside my house was not enough room and it was so small and light (cheap) that any wind at all would make it go all wonky but the thing was durable and I ran it into a bunch of stuff and never broke even a propeller.





This is what I got on a lightning deal (it has an RF tracker):



https://a.co/d/3mSPcOK



I saw it on sale right after during Black Friday and Cyber Monday for a little more then the $220 I paid for it. It is a decent drone for the price I paid for it so I gave it a good review and they sent me a free battery. 20 min is about right if you save video to a micro SD card. If you stream it and save it on your phone it will drain the battery quickly. It also has all of the return when low battery/lost signal etc and all of the follow me/hand motion detection/ cool stuff the more expensive stuff has.



At around $400, if I had the cash, I would probably spent more (well almost double) and buy one of the DiJI models. A buddy got one and played with it a couple times and hasn't touched it since but it is sub 250 grams and a step up from the videos I've watched.



As others have said, a more expensive drone doesn't mean it is 'easier to fly' per se so I would highly recommend a cheaper model to start with and make your mistakes and list of things you like/do not like first. Then buy a better one if you feel the need.


This may be an income related thing but I can not even relate to spending $3000+ on something to learn on much less $10k. That's a $10K loss if you bugger it up vs being down $300-$400 while you are learning. You can always sell it if you don't want it after you have learned how to fly them — but that's just me.


Just my 2¢ - best of luck

 

[Yarome]

This is what I got on a lightning deal (it has an RF tracker):

As others have said, a more expensive drone doesn't mean it is 'easier to fly' per se so I would highly recommend a cheaper model to start with and make your mistakes and list of things you like/do not like first. Then buy a better one if you feel the need.

Just to be aware. GPS location data is "kind of" a tracker, but that only works when the drone is operational, the main battery still has a charge and the drone is still capable of receiving and transmitting exterior signals... and they are available. Earlier, mentioning an RF tracker, is a bit different of an animal. They have their own power supply and most can maintain operation for multiple days. Typically using passive transmission. Basically in "sleep mode" until it detects the hand held tracking units signal and then wakes up and transmits a directional signal back to the tracking unit. It's not reliant on an operational drone or any other external signal/network.

The main benefit is when your drone has an inflight failure and/or has lost main battery power. Either depleted or ejected on impact. GPS telemetry to your "tracker" software can be interrupted or may not be transmitting accurate information. If there was an inflight failure, where the drone stopped operating and fell out of the sky may not be anywhere near where it hits the dirt.

When you're close enough, it can also pinpoint an exact location. Be it on the ground or... up in a tree... which can be very difficult to pinpoint with just a "last known" GPS coord.

Another scenario (and actually the only time I've had to use my tracker), your drone lands away from you... someone else happens across it before you do and tried to take off with it. Many are smart enough to turn it off or pull the battery, but the tracker is likely to go unnoticed and recovery may still be possible.

That said, and considering a decent RF tracker can cost a bit, I don't know that it's worth it for a sub $400 drone, but when you're talking $2k and up... it's fairly inexpensive insurance. Something like an airtag would probably work too, but to be aware that it's only effective where network access is available.

Ease of flight. That's kind of true, but there is a threshold. Cheaper drones are more likely to have poor flight algorithms and the flight controller and/or software may not be all that great. Other factors would be how good/accurate is the onboard hardware? (compass, altimeter, how many GPS signals can it utilize, etc.)

When I mentioned that earlier I was thinking more about, say, looking at the range of a brand name product line and all are running on essentially the same basic hardware and the same controller software... buying one of their $500 drones or their $10k drone... the 10k model isn't really going to be any "easier" to fly.

I've never flown a Bwine, but I have flown a few other "lesser known brand" drones and the flight characteristics have often been very "wanting". Some better than others, obviously.

What can be aggravating is some fly okay in GPS mode, but manual mode... it's like the mfg didn't even care... and it can be difficult to keep it moving where you want it to. Or... one in particular I remember had a very annoying lag in signal and processing inputs. It was easier flying it visually than trying to use the controller software and display, but was still a real PITA.

YMMV

 

[Joe13]

@Pnwbrrt

If you are up this way - I know it's a drive, but if you give me some notice, I'd have no problem with you checking out the drone I have.

Maybe if you found someone closer to you as well, it might be nice to check out one or two just to check em out.

I'm by no means an expert, just a casual player. @Yarome seems to know his stuff for sure.

 

[arakboss]

DC Firm Pitches Machine Gun Fitted Drone for Ukraine

Washington DC-based Feloni Aero launched a pair of armed unmanned aerial systems for potential deployment in Ukraine.

www.thedefensepost.com

 

[rcnpthfndr]

Response to post #1 drones as reconnaissance platforms in built up areas, not remote locations.

No its not, at least any more. C-sUAS systems can see you and your drone as soon as you turn it on. Not all are jammers and the others can manipulate the link technologies in other ways.

 

[Certaindeaf]

As long as it can macerate a condor and spotted owl on one charge.






Not really

 

[Yarome]

No its not, at least any more. C-sUAS systems can see you and your drone as soon as you turn it on. Not all are jammers and the others can manipulate the link technologies in other ways.

Yes... IF.... there is a C-sUAS system within range, which is quite limited.. and further limited by the RF transmission distance of the controller and drone... which is typically even more limited. Those systems are typically not going to be able to have widespread coverage and would most likely be deployed only as a countermeasure around sensitive or military targets.

They use a range of detection sensors though. RF, radar, motion, thermal and good old visual detection. The most limited being the RF sensors. The RF sensors also have a limited channel range are are easily confused/ineffective where there is a lot of "signal static".

IE., In an urban or even suburban setting, a C-sUAS RF detection system would be cluttered with every home/car/business/hotspot WIFI device. It's virtually impossible to distinguish between a single drone being turned or one of the many wifi devices typical in most every home these days. Even when the signal source is moving, a drone can't be distinguished from a vehicles interior wifi or simple wifi enabled devices that happen to be in the car.

 

[rcnpthfndr]

There are two primary type's of Drone detection systems and both are not focused primarily on RF detection.

1. Jammers
2. Library based

Jammers systems are part of a System of Systems. Usually a radar of sorts (Q's, KuRF's, RPS), an EO/IR camera and Jammer masts.

Library based systems are completely different. They speak your drones language and that's what they listen for. Once detected the operator can manipulate your platform in that trade space. Its this library that filters out all the external Electromagnetic interference I.E. wifi pucks, hotspots etc. and allows the operator to hijack your airframe in real time or monitor your video feed without you knowing. The operator can also see your location (Transmitter), the airframes current track and its RTL location. They can also see your platforms SN, make and model, current firmware, the IMEI number off your Tablet or phone and other data.

there is more too it, but that's the jist of it without me crossing certain lines.

 

[Pnwbrrt]

If you don't already have some experience with drones, "buy once, cry once" is likely less important than "try before you buy". What you are describing is like someone who has never picked up a guitar before dropping $8-10k on gear when they don't know if they have either the aptitude or passion for it. Buying a mid-grade drone to build familiarity and experience is IMO money well spent. If you end up finding you aren't that into drones after all, then you've minimized the cost of your experiment, whereas if you find you're really passionate about it you've learned important skills and developed understanding of platform limitations.

Touchè. Point taken.

 

[Pnwbrrt]

Response to post #1 drones as reconnaissance platforms in built up areas, not remote locations.

No its not, at least any more. C-sUAS systems can see you and your drone as soon as you turn it on. Not all are jammers and the others can manipulate the link technologies in other ways.

I-CsUAS has a detection range of 2km via RF detection, radar and cameras. The integrated systems allow for Kenetic strikes against the identified UAV, Electromagnetic energy attacks and RF jamming. I don't forsee I-Csuas being of particular concern.

 

[Pnwbrrt]

There are two primary type's of Drone detection systems and both are not focused primarily on RF detection.

1. Jammers
2. Library based

Jammers systems are part of a System of Systems. Usually a radar of sorts (Q's, KuRF's, RPS), an EO/IR camera and Jammer masts.

Library based systems are completely different. They speak your drones language and that's what they listen for. Once detected the operator can manipulate your platform in that trade space. Its this library that filters out all the external Electromagnetic interference I.E. wifi pucks, hotspots etc. and allows the operator to hijack your airframe in real time or monitor your video feed without you knowing. The operator can also see your location (Transmitter), the airframes current track and its RTL location. They can also see your platforms SN, make and model, current firmware, the IMEI number off your Tablet or phone and other data.

there is more too it, but that's the jist of it without me crossing certain lines.

It was my understanding that hijacking worked Via Overpowering the RF signal from the controller while replicating the frequency (so to speak). The rest of that I am mostly ignorant on (but quite interested). I imagine that the datalink and feed interception would require a dedicated human operator, no? As far as the UAS ID such as SN and such, that provides the C-UAS with Intel regarding potential payload capabilities, range, flight speed Etc to classify the potential threat and that information wouldn't expose the operator beyond providing a general Idea of how far away the operator is in the moment of that data interception, but in the case of I-CsUAS that data is analyzed by AI. I'm curious to learn more about the airframe hijacking now, so thank you for the input.

General Side note/disclaimer: I think use case/application is an important thing to keep in mind while discussing C-UAV threats in this context. Mobile towers I forsee as being a primary consideration, along with Handheld jammers and the like. additionally id worry about companies like DJI rolling out a targeted software update to make their product functionally useless by expanding "no fly zones" to CONUS or something like that.
In this context we're not discussing penetrating hardened targets but more so trying to operate securely to analyze movement and do size-ups on ground threats in your immediate environment. Primarily less equipped adversaries. Think a growing ANTIFA riot or an alphabet group going door to door, NWO socialism taking root or whatever it may be. When we start considering military counter measures that changes the conversation drastically to a tone that sounds more offensive than defensive. I think there are certain worthy considerations there but I'd like to be clear that, facing hardened targets is not of interest in this thought exercise.