If They Come for Your Guns, Do You Have a Responsibility to Fight?

[dmancornell]

Forget about violent overthrow.

Ignore the state, treat it with contempt. If enough people do that, the state will collapse on its own. Of course the state will fight ferociously to the bitter end with its "legitimate violence", but that's what we get for allowing the state to become the monster that it is today.

 

[hatchj]

ill say this...if someone comes to get them....i dont have them. if they wanna look, they arent leaving. (not saying murder, but theyll leave when and where i say)

 

[Bob D]

Forget about violent overthrow.

Ignore the state, treat it with contempt. If enough people do that, the state will collapse on its own. Of course the state will fight ferociously to the bitter end with its "legitimate violence", but that's what we get for allowing the state to become the monster that it is today.

That seems as good an option as any other. Hahaha!
Collapse of the state might negatively affect my life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness though. On the other hand, maybe my neighborhood will submit to me as their benevolent overlord if I can arm a large enough group of loyal followers.

 

[dmancornell]

That seems as good an option as any other. Hahaha!
Collapse of the state might negatively affect my life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness though. On the other hand, maybe my neighborhood will submit to me as their benevolent overlord if I can arm a large enough group of loyal followers.

As Nietzsche says, everything the state has is stolen. Whatever safety it was able to provide was funded by involuntary confiscation of wealth, and in some cases, lives. Moreover, you had nothing more than the illusion of safety. As the courts ruled, the police have no obligation to protect you, and the armed forces serve the state above all else.

The collapse of the federal regime would be the greatest boon for individual rights in the history of the nation.

 

[Burt Gummer]

How can someone be so naive as to believe the state enhances one's life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness? It has always been the enemy of individual freedom. Dman nailed that one. Just sad that so many are so deluded to believe otherwise. Perhaps the same ignorant folks who believe we are marauding around the globe 'fighting for our freedoms.' Just nauseating.

 

[Netspirit]

The collapse of the federal regime would be the greatest boon for individual rights in the history of the nation.

It would be accompanied by the collapse of all standards of living, security and health care, birth rate, education levels, employment, price stability - pretty much everything will go down the toilet. Just see what happened to the economy of the former USSR after the state had collapsed - most people there are still cursing the "evil 90s" (even if the USSR was a much worse offender of individual rights and generally will not be missed). Yugoslavia went further into a civil war and horrendous mass killings. I am sure that when the regime in the N.Korea inevitably collapses there will be hunger, crime, abortions, alcohol and drugs, poverty and all other kinds of misery before things get better, and there is no guarantee that the new regime will bring freedom.

In short, you do not want to cut your whole arm off if it can be saved. I am as good a "doctor" as anyone else here, but I believe that "arm" is not lost yet.

The American democracy, while imperfect, does give the people some tools to write its history. Those tools are education, communication, political activism, lobbying, whatever. Gun enthusiasts have to use them, instead of asking dramatic questions like "would you shoot your own son if he wanted to stab you?". The right answer is: "help your son become a good human being, and you will not have to think about it". "If they come for your guns, do you fight them?" - "No they will not, because there are enough of us to make it unrealistic, and we will be trying to get more and more people on our side".

My $0.02.

 

[Jammer Six]

There are two more points that contribute to stability in the U.S. One is that change is, by design, difficult to accomplish and slow in coming, and the other is that it isn't necessary to overthrow the government and start over. Peaceful transfer of power as well as an ability to change with the times are both cornerstones.

The idea that the United States can be overthrown by force of arms is good for comedic relief, but if you want change that lasts, that's much harder, because it involves convincing other people that you're right, and that you shouldn't be shot on sight.

You know, civilization.

 

[dmancornell]

It would be accompanied by the collapse of all standards of living, security and health care, birth rate, education levels, employment, price stability - pretty much everything will go down the toilet.

Standards of living - Saw its greatest increase in this nation's history during the 2nd half of the 19th century, before the advent of the Total State.

Security - This country is despised because of the actions of the state, not the people.

Health care - Because Medicaid and Medicare are such paragons of quality and efficiency.

Birth rate - Who cares?

Education levels - Our government prison-daycare centers are crap, even the state acknowledges this.

Employment - Implying the government creates jobs of any sort, LOL.

Price stability - What price stability? The dollar has lost 95% of its value since the creation of the federal reserve.

Just see what happened to the economy of the former USSR after the state had collapsed - most people there are still cursing the "evil 90s" (even if the USSR was a much worse offender of individual rights and generally will not be missed).

Sure, lots of people in Russia missed the USSR days, such as the apparatchiks, state functionaries and dependent parasites. I think the former gulag inmates and suppressed entrepreneurs weren't so sad.

Anyways, your argument is pure scaremongering, nothing more. The state has been pulling the same crap for decades. Stop the drug war and all your kids will be dopers. Pass concealed carry and there would be daily gun battles on the streets. Reform welfare and there will be millions starving to death. All propaganda to protect the state.

 

[JackThompson]

Netspirit, Jammer, BobD.

You guys scare the heck out of me.

Your lack of ability to see anything realistic, or understand a point you didn't make, or even participate in a debate without interjecting totalitarianism is a prime example of why we are where we are.

If it was easy on my phone to put you on ignore I would. I will fix that tonight.

I'm quite interested in debating what's possible with the sane folks in the group. Since you really don't care about this thread, and don't care to bring value, perhaps you can go poop on another thread for a bit? Oh well. Probably not.

Perhaps the rest of you folks can just put them in ignore and continue some rational dialogue?

It's worth a shot.

Anyway. I think the rest of us can agree that what we want is to restore our great nation to what it was intended to be. Not to burn the constitution, or abolish medicine (Although the healthcare system can take a hike).

This doesn't invalidate the ideals and beliefs this country was built on. It is a desire to wrest it back from the greet folks that have taken and bastardized it.

We want our country back. If enough of us stand up for ourselves. In organized refusal to play this game any longer. If we show that we are the majority, that we KNOW the crap games they are playing with our country and the entire world, they lose much of their power.

If you let some dillweed(s) tell you that "Teh Armageddon will come!" then you probably aren't actually awake enough to join in yet anyway.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

That's one problem with the internet, this excellent forum, and posting freedom.. anyone can post their "opinion"..

I would not change the freedom we have at this forum for any censorship of the above posters.. know thine enemy

 

[Bob D]

Jack, I think there's a misunderstanding happening here.

I in no way want to destroy the constitution. I am as much behind the notion of returning this nation to the greatness that it was founded on as you are.

Our belief as far as what is the best way to do that may differ, but the founding fathers had a lot of wildly different and opposing viewpoints on a lot of issues as well. They were coming at the same goal from different directions. I want what you want.

I am often mistaken, when I write about hypotheticals and end results, as a proponent of those results. I am definitely not. When I say "armed revolution will bring about the Constitution's end" it is not because I want the constitution to be burned, or because I want everyone to just shut up and take what the government feeds them.

I definitely want those of us who believe in the Constitution to find a way to stem the tide of authoritarian politics that it is being improperly used to enact, but I firmly believe that threatening violence against my neighbors is not an effective way to do that.

We disagree only on method, not on principle.

That said, there is definitely a time and a place where taking up arms and risking your life for what you believe in is the absolute right thing to do, and I am absolutely willing to do it. I've had to stand in the line of fire and shoot back at men trying to take from me the things that I love, and I know I am capable of it. I also know firsthand the cost of taking a life, and I will exhaust every other option first. Especially if I can't envision a good outcome through the gunsmoke.

I am disgusted by the actions of most of our politicians. I am with you on this fight, but I am extremely doubtful that all the death and pain of an armed uprising would fix enough of the problems we've got to be worth it.

I merely want a constructive and effective method to rectify this long slide away from freedom, but if the legal methods fail at this point, I see none. I apologize if my opinions offend or frighten you, they are not intended to do so.

 

[TAD]

If it came down to us rising up and fighting our state or federal goverment what nation would be the first to come in and take over? I dont believe we could ever fight on two fronts from within.

I figure someone will think this is a silly question but I just think a fracture in our country large enough to get the tip of a wedge into will be just the thing others are looking for so they can swing the maul. Am I missing something or just to stupid to understand all this?

Just for the record I dont care for much that the goverment does other than necessary stuff. We do need a goverment but smaller not bigger.

 

[wichaka]

Having friends in the ATF and DHS...here's the poop. They won't come and get them.

If they do have a ban, it will be like Australia. They will set a date that x has to be turned in, after that they become illegal.
But they won't go house to house.

My advice...don't register anything.

Right now they don't know where everything is. But if they do install a ban, they will know where it is.

Yes, those that know me can attest I'm an LEO...been in the biz for 25+ years.

But enough is enough.

 

[oknow]

Having friends in the ATF and DHS...here's the poop. They won't come and get them.

If they do have a ban, it will be like Australia. They will set a date that x has to be turned in, after that they become illegal.
But they won't go house to house.

My advice...don't register anything.

Right now they don't know where everything is. But if they do install a ban, they will know where it is.

Yes, those that know me can attest I'm an LEO...been in the biz for 25+ years.

But enough is enough.

 

[JackThompson]

I for one am not advocating a gunfight.

Just for the record. What I want to see is some truth. I would like to see these liars exposed. I would like to stand with millions of my countrymen and say "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more!"

If "They" make our guns illegal with the stroke of a pen I will hide them somewhere and prepare for the other shoe to drop (and it will).

If a group arises from this mess with the promise of change I will eagerly investigate it.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

I for one am not advocating a gunfight.

Just for the record. What I want to see is some truth. I would like to see these liars exposed. I would like to stand with millions of my countrymen and say "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more!"

If "They" make our guns illegal with the stroke of a pen I will hide them somewhere and prepare for the other shoe to drop (and it will).

If a group arises from this mess with the promise of change I will eagerly investigate it.

The colonists in 1775 hoped for a peaceful resolution, as well. We must live in the matrix we exist in

 

[JackThompson]

The colonists in 1775 hoped for a peaceful resolution, as well. We must live in the matrix we exist in

... And if that's the conclusion of this chapter of our nations history, to repeat itself I will follow it to its bitter end brother. I just pray sanity and humanity prevails.

But like you, I watch with skeptical eyes....

 

[Blitzkrieg]

... And if that's the conclusion of this chapter of our nations history, to repeat itself I will follow it to its bitter end brother. I just pray sanity and humanity prevails.

But like you, I watch with skeptical eyes....

One thing we know my friend, history repeats itself, and usually because the people do not learn the lessons of history

 

[MinnesotaORnewbie]

lol

 

[oknow]

lol, you and your numbers. Not sure if you dream some of your stuff up or if you have rehearsed it. Either that or even you believe the b.s. that comes out of your mind. And most of us on this site already know of how many guns you have, types, all your accessories, number of preps in detail and how many sturgeon you have...at least I get a laugh when ever I read most of your posts

so you are part of the few that will turn your neighbor in for a attaboy from the gooberment, (since you have kept such good track of 1stklass knowing what kind and how many guns he has) guess we all better keep an eye on you