Home Defense Shotty List - Agree/Disagree?

[Jarhead 0311]

My Marine Corps issue Ithaca mod 37 with flechette and 00 ammo. No walkin away from that combo. Take my word for it.

 

[Core]

I have always felt most comfortable with a good 12 ga. pump action riot gun and prefer an earlier Winchester (1200-1300) Defender to anything else. I don't have to worry about a round going through a wall and into the neighbor's house, norView attachment 344523 going down the hall and into another room in my own house. I use the "Law enforcement low recoil loads" in case my wife has to grab it. Mine is ten years old and has never been fired but I have had enough experience with these to know it will do what it is supposed to do if necessary, and I hope it never is!

Shotgun tactical loads whether buckshot or slugs typically have massive penetration so test your loads on a demo wall at the range from your local construction demo dump. The low recoil loads are typically faster burning powder and a lighter shot load which can actually increase penetration. Be safe and don't assume your loads and equipment will deliver lip service before putting them to the test. Also, Ranger is a fantastic action for a tactical shotgun build. But it's best to run the shotgun hard and wet before assuming it will deliver. Rangers are one of the smoother pump actions but many shotguns were designed to be hunting guns, not hard use defensive weapons. Tgis is why I use a Remington 870 Police Express Magnum. It has the tool steel extractor and plenty of military and police lineage. My friend's Remington 870 Super Magnum came with the MIM extractor and failed on his first goose hunting trip. I replaced his extractor with tool steel and it's been gtg since. Run it hard and wet before staking your life on it, and inspect vigilantly for defects and wear items. Best.

 

[Silver Hand]

Shotgun tactical loads whether buckshot or slugs typically have massive penetration so test your loads on a demo wall at the range from your local construction demo dump. The low recoil loads are typically faster burning powder and a lighter shot load which can actually increase penetration. Be safe and don't assume your loads and equipment will deliver lip service before putting them to the test. Also, Ranger is a fantastic action for a tactical shotgun build. But it's best to run the shotgun hard and wet before assuming it will deliver. Rangers are one of the smoother pump actions but many shotguns were designed to be hunting guns, not hard use defensive weapons. Tgis is why I use a Remington 870 Police Express Magnum. It has the tool steel extractor and plenty of military and police lineage. My friend's Remington 870 Super Magnum came with the MIM extractor and failed on his first goose hunting trip. I replaced his extractor with tool steel and it's been gtg since. Run it hard and wet before staking your life on it, and inspect vigilantly for defects and wear items. Best.

You are Very much mistaken!
Silver Hand

 

[Silver Hand]

So here is a great video on just that subject see 5minuts 58 seconds if nothing else.

Silver Hand

 

[Core]

You are Very much mistaken!
Silver Hand

I have five different types of "low recoil" cartridges and they all have "low flash", faster burning powder with slightly lighter projectiles? The only exception is the Federal "micro" HST pistol cartridges I have that have a heavier projectile. They also sell a standard weight projectile load, and a lighter projectile load. It's been relatively common knowledge for about a decade+ that faster burning powders can be loaded with lighter projectiles to reduce felt recoil. The increase in velocity also gets the projectile out of the barrel quicker reducing the chance of disturbance in the sight alignment. It's the magic behind Hornady's Superformance line.

 

[Jnarowe]

So here is a great video on just that subject see 5minuts 58 seconds if nothing else.

Silver Hand

I'm happy at 3:16.

 

[Silver Hand]

I have five different types of "low recoil" cartridges and they all have "low flash", faster burning powder with slightly lighter projectiles? The only exception is the Federal "micro" HST pistol cartridges I have that have a heavier projectile. They also sell a standard weight projectile load, and a lighter projectile load. It's been relatively common knowledge for about a decade+ that faster burning powders can be loaded with lighter projectiles to reduce felt recoil. The increase in velocity also gets the projectile out of the barrel quicker reducing the chance of disturbance in the sight alignment. It's the magic behind Hornady's Superformance line.

Velocity is velocity
I have over forty five years in ballistics science.
Silver Hand

 

[Core]

Velocity is velocity
I have over forty five years in ballistics science.
Silver Hand

I'm not going to make a blanket statement IRT velocity and felt recoil, but the increase in velocity does in fact lead to greater penetration with conventional shot and slugs. This is why conventional rifle cartridges have greater penetration and lethality than conventional pistol cartridges whereas the projectile outweighs the rifle projectile yet has a significantly higher velocity. This is the direction the military is headed, and the idea behind the Army's new M855A1 cartridge by increasing velocity and changing the projectile to carry a lighter but denser modular projectile. It does have drawbacks like greater barrel erosion however, it penetrates much more effectively than a slower projectile of greater mass and less density.

But to hit on what I said originally: shotgun shells like plated buckshot and slugs are capable of great penetration. I have seen a lead 12 gauge slug enter the side of a car and exit the other side. So my point to my reply was that he should be careful and test his load-out to make sure it won't go through his home and his neighbors home like many shotgun shells will.

 

[bbbass]

But to hit on what I said originally: shotgun shells like plated buckshot and slugs are capable of great penetration. I have seen a lead 12 gauge slug enter the side of a car and exit the other side. So my point to my reply was that he should be careful and test his load-out to make sure it won't go through his home and his neighbors home like many shotgun shells will.

I'm using mine for the Zombie Apocalypse so at that point I don't care.

 

[bbbass]

To be or not to be... pump or auto-loader.

 

[Silver Hand]

I'm not going to make a blanket statement IRT velocity and felt recoil, but the increase in velocity does in fact lead to greater penetration with conventional shot and slugs. This is why conventional rifle cartridges have greater penetration and lethality than conventional pistol cartridges whereas the projectile outweighs the rifle projectile yet has a significantly higher velocity. This is the direction the military is headed, and the idea behind the Army's new M855A1 cartridge by increasing velocity and changing the projectile to carry a lighter but denser modular projectile. It does have drawbacks like greater barrel erosion however, it penetrates much more effectively than a slower projectile of greater mass and less density.

But to hit on what I said originally: shotgun shells like plated buckshot and slugs are capable of great penetration. I have seen a lead 12 gauge slug enter the side of a car and exit the other side. So my point to my reply was that he should be careful and test his load-out to make sure it won't go through his home and his neighbors home like many shotgun shells will.

I'm happy at 3:16.

Did you have a chance to watch the 000 buck?

 

[Boboclown]

Yup - A Punt Gun or Market gun used to kill 50 or more ducks at a time. I remember some of the history, Banned for depleting ducks etc. long ago.
A Punt Gun, used for duck hunting but were banned because they depleted stocks of wild fowl, 1910-1920

The boat or one like it belonged to a friend of mine back in the 1970s. Deadly on ducks in open water and is legal to use as far as I know.

Silver Hand

IICR legal to own and shoot, but no game hunting with it.

 

[Jnarowe]

Did you have a chance to watch the 000 buck?

yes. and I have shot some of it. I prefer 00. I like the way it shoots, patterns, and in my case, it seems like the best choice for home defense. Easily obtained. I live where rounds cannot impact another home. And my house is large and filled with walls, hallways, etc. that I might need to penetrate.

 

[Core]

Did you have a chance to watch the 000 buck?

I don't trust the integrity of the video. At first glance the different video for each shot and different gel. I'm also not a ballistic gelatin believer. It's apples and oranges. Physics says increased velocity will penetrate further until shot deformation or breakup. This effect is true in solid mediums. Liquids, gasses, and non newtonian fluids are an exception. As the projectiles phase through different states of density this can also cause deformation and cause variations. A test on walls/sheetrock would be more realistic.

 

[Silver Hand]

yes. and I have shot some of it. I prefer 00. I like the way it shoots, patterns, and in my case, it seems like the best choice for home defense. Easily obtained. I live where rounds cannot impact another home. And my house is large and filled with walls, hallways, etc. that I might need to penetrate.

Look into buffering for your loads amazing the difference in pattern density. Not that it is ever needed inside a home. Unless you just want round holes every ware.
Carded rounds will separate faster.
Buffer page
Silver Hand

 

[Joe13]

Physics says increased velocity will penetrate further

Not to trying to nit pick but it is Velocity + projectile mass = penetration (given the same medium being penetrated).

 

[Core]

Not to trying to nit pick but it is Velocity + projectile mass = penetration (given the same medium being penetrated).

Yup.

 

[Silver Hand]

I don't trust the integrity of the video. At first glance the different video for each shot and different gel. I'm also not a ballistic gelatin believer. It's apples and oranges. Physics says increased velocity will penetrate further until shot deformation or breakup. This effect is true in solid mediums. Liquids, gasses, and non newtonian fluids are an exception. As the projectiles phase through different states of density this can also cause deformation and cause variations. A test on walls/sheetrock would be more realistic.

This is the source I used for the Demonstration.
Brass Fetcher Ballistic Testing
Silver Hand

 

[U8395279]

Congratulations on your Prius, knowing how to avoid Eugene scum and learning how to operate a semi auto shotgun at the age of 14. My 11 and 13 year old know how to operate one too. My 13 year old has a PUMP (GASP!!) shotgun that was his Christmas present this year.

Give yourself a HUGE pat on the back for that.

Am I an experienced shooter? Never said that. I said average shooter. Average shooter doesn't pay attention to a semi auto shotgun, keeping it clean, lubed and so it will cycle #8 low brass.

Ever see a semi auto have issues with low brass shot? Ever seen a pump have issues with low brass? I haven't.

Keep dancing if you wish.

I'm sure an average shooter also works on trigger control too... you know..

So they don't do like what you suggested, pull the trigger and keep shooting.. while putting 8 holes the size of a golf ball in an intruder? Then they are sent to prison for shooting a fleeing suspect or one that was lying on the floor because they got anxious and kept pulling the trigger.

Real smart Lance. Real smart.

Again I state:

The average user should use a PUMP shotgun so they think about every shot.

Man, I certainly am not shooting low brass #8 shot in my home defense shotgun. I doubt that many people use low base target ammo for self-defense purposes. That is pretty much inserting a red herring into this discussion, in my opinion.

Again, I could easily clean and maintain my Browning Auto-5 as a young teen. To argue that your average shooter is so inept that he cannot adequately maintain a semiauto shotgun is a downright silly notion to have. My two AR-15 rifles are far, far more tedious and time consuming to clean and maintain than any of my shotguns are. And just tell me sir, how popular has the AR-15 become in today's society??

Are you now going to argue that your "average" shooter should not use an AR-15??

And to then argue that simply using a semiauto shotgun is going to then induce someone into taking inappropriate shots? My goddess gracious, that is pure fantasy thinking. It is total imagination on your part. And again, if your argument about this is true, then people should not buy guns like a Ruger 10-22, or any type of AR or AK either. For those guns have far higher magazine capacities, and are thus going to cause more irresponsible shots than any shotgun would, if your theory was true.

Your arguments here against semiauto shotguns are absolutely full of holes.

.

 

[Boboclown]

Are you now going to argue that your "average" shooter should not use an AR-15??

Yes, its a high powered rifle with shoulder injuring recoil, loud enough to make you run and scream, and causes brief moments of PTSD.

If a shotgun works, it works. Semi, pump, bolt, who cares as long as it stops a home invader?

And I pay attention to all of my guns and like to keep them working. Prety sure the average shooter would want that too.