Gig Harbor man shoots man he wrongly suspects of stealing groceries

[P7M13]

If the 70 y.o. is a man of means, there is blood in the water with sharks circling. Party time!

 

[Xaevian]

Well, the 70 year old won't have to worry about empty store shelves for a while, most likely. Innocent before proven guilty and all that.

 

[OldBroad44]

I'm 76 and female. If the 70 year old male thought I was shoplifting he would probably be much slower to pull a gun on me than he would on a 40-year-old male. On the other hand, he would be more likely to grab me and figure he can physically control me with impunity, perhaps search me without permission, etc. I'd speak softly and gently and say " You're making a mistake. I didn't steal anything, and I have the receipts to prove it. Lets get a manager here to sort it out." Then I'd call loudly for a manager. If an employee turned up I'd ask her to stay with us and explain guy wouldn't let me leave so I was actually kidnapped, and continue calling for manager. If 70-year-old guy put his hands on me I would NOT pull my EDC. I would instead break his collarbone with my handy dandy Cane Masters walking/fighting cane. The right collarbone if possible in case he is right handed. That's painful enough so the odds are good that he'd be out of it. I'd be watching for him to draw a gun or knife, though, and if he did I'd break that arm or wrist too. I wouldn't draw my EDC at all. The cane has the advantage that it would already be in my hand, as I need it to get around these days. In addition, a gun is really only designed to apply lethal force. The cane gives me a choice. A hard head blow with a heavy hickory cane is likely to be lethal or to at least cause unconsciousness and brain damage. Unless the guy draws a gun there is nothing to suggest lethal force is appropriate. In addition, if the store was full of people, deploying or shooting a gun isn't optimal.

The collarbone blow is easy to do, likely to be incapacitating, but likely to heal completely once set, doing no permanent damage. Collar bones are meant to be broken, and to protect the other bones by breaking. Blows to the long bones of arms or legs can break them and redirect their motion, and are likely to be fixable. Hard blows to elbows or knees incapacitate the limb and may or may not be fully fixable.

If I were in a store and saw someone trying to steal, I'd just tell an employee or manager and get out quick so they don't have the option of trying to take up my time being a witness.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Situational.
Massive options, depending on variables. I wouldn't go straight to the hands unless the blocker struck first.

Agree about being situational. A lot of times you have to actually be there to understand the situation.

In another thread I talked about a recent trip to fedex store where a creepo dude tried to block the exit on my way out. From my experience in him trying to cut me off on the way in (he was the try to take advantage of people/begging etc type) I chose to walk faster and straight at him with a look that said "you better move". I had my hand on my gun in my pocket at the time. He moved, all was fine.

With the 70 year old guy situation (as described in the article anyway) I would have turned around and gone to the closest cashier and told them "some crazy person is blocking the door and won't let me leave" then let them/their security deal with him. It might cause a 5 minute delay but would be the simplest, lowest risk, and most trouble free way IMO.

 

[titsonritz]

If 70-year-old guy put his hands on me I would NOT pull my EDC. I would instead break his collarbone with my handy dandy Cane Masters walking/fighting cane. The right collarbone if possible in case he is right handed. That's painful enough so the odds are good that he'd be out of it. I'd be watching for him to draw a gun or knife, though, and if he did I'd break that arm or wrist too. I wouldn't draw my EDC at all. The cane has the advantage that it would already be in my hand, as I need it to get around these days. In addition, a gun is really only designed to apply lethal force. The cane gives me a choice. A hard head blow with a heavy hickory cane is likely to be lethal or to at least cause unconsciousness and brain damage. Unless the guy draws a gun there is nothing to suggest lethal force is appropriate. In addition, if the store was full of people, deploying or shooting a gun isn't optimal.

The collarbone blow is easy to do, likely to be incapacitating, but likely to heal completely once set, doing no permanent damage. Collar bones are meant to be broken, and to protect the other bones by breaking. Blows to the long bones of arms or legs can break them and redirect their motion, and are likely to be fixable. Hard blows to elbows or knees incapacitate the limb and may or may not be fully fixable.

If I were in a store and saw someone trying to steal, I'd just tell an employee or manager and get out quick so they don't have the option of trying to take up my time being a witness.

My theory is if I'm at the collar bone breaking point I'm going to break both of them, that way the dirtball can think of me every time he needs clean up after taking a dump, I'd probably go ahead and pop both eardrums for the hell of it, too, since I'm right there anyway.

 

[OldBroad44]

My theory is if I'm at the collar bone breaking point I'm going to break both of them, that way the dirtball can think of me every time he needs clean up after taking a dump, I'd probably go ahead and pop both eardrums for the hell of it, too, since I'm right there anyway.

I'm figuring the 70-year-old guy is mentally ill or senile. He's acting crazy, not evil. I seriously doubt he chose to have his aging brain deteriorate in this particular way.

I'm wondering how your approach would stand up legally. If you hit him four times in response to his putting hands on you, I suspect you'd be in danger of being charged with assault. SD has to look appropriate for the situation. The two blows to the ears might do permanent hearing damage. And since they are head blows they might do brain damage or even kill him. If you did this stuff after he pulled a gun it would probably be more likely to be considered SD rather than assault. But its possible you'd get charged with assault for all the blows after the first one. Even if you weren't, you might then face civil trials brought by relatives.

 

[Catfishmoon]

How would you handle someone prohibiting you from leaving a grocery store? Based on the man's actions, let's assume that walking away and using another exit wouldn't have been an option

For me, my mood at the moment would be a factor if some stranger sought to detain me... On a day that I am in a very good mood, I might play along for a bit and get store employees involved or call the police, other days it could escalate quickly.
I know how I react during so-called "road rage" it can vary widely, I suspect this would be similar.

 

[salmon creek gary]

Shows to go ya, it isn't enough to avoid trouble by living the motto, "Don't go stupid places with stupid people to do stupid things". Not when there are stupid people out there who'll bring trouble to you when all you're trying to do is pick up some groceries at the local store.

Actually, this incident parallels - but goes way beyond - that situation awhile back in (I think) a New York hotel where a hyper "Karen" assaulted a young man, insisting he had her missing smartphone. He did not have her phone, and it hadn't even been stolen; the ditz had just misplaced it.

At least "Karen" with the missing phone had a personal stake in that situation, a reason (even if a mistaken reason) to be upset and initiate contact. Gig Harbor Guy, however, chose to involve himself in a totally "noneya" situation, then escalate that from discussion to verbal conflict and then gunfire. He's likely to lose some freedom, and will almost certainly transfer a heap of his retirement fund to the other guy (and a crowd of lawyers).

And I surely do not want to learn tomorrow anything like he became a gun owner in March 2020, a CPL holder a few months later, and then immediately bought himself a glitzy "Concealed Carry" badge.

 

[L84Cabo]

How would you handle someone prohibiting you from leaving a grocery store? Based on the man's actions, let's assume that walking away and using another exit wouldn't have been an option

To state what I hope is the obvious, some random dude...who is clearly not a store employee or peace officer...has no authority over me whatsoever. I don't owe him the time of day, let alone an explanation for my groceries. But let's assume I'm in an accommodating mood because I think it will help peacefully defuse the situation...

I would first show him my receipt and if that didn't work, I'd ask him to call the manager over and we/he can discuss it with him. Let's hope he's rational enough that once he sees that the manager of the store doesn't have a problem with me, he shouldn't either.

If he's not rational and it escalates from there, I have pepper spray and a CCW depending on what he does. I would hope I wouldn't have to use either but that decision is up to him.

 

[titsonritz]

I'm figuring the 70-year-old guy is mentally ill or senile. He's acting crazy, not evil. I seriously doubt he chose to have his aging brain deteriorate in this particular way.

I'm wondering how your approach would stand up legally. If you hit him four times in response to his putting hands on you, I suspect you'd be in danger of being charged with assault. SD has to look appropriate for the situation. The two blows to the ears might do permanent hearing damage. And since they are head blows they might do brain damage or even kill him. If you did this stuff after he pulled a gun it would probably be more likely to be considered SD rather than assault. But its possible you'd get charged with assault for all the blows after the first one. Even if you weren't, you might then face civil trials brought by relatives.

He's the one that pulled the gun, he'd be lucky if I didn't tear out his throat or shoot him in the face. Mental whatever gets zero quarter with me. I don't go looking for trouble but I will end it immediately if to wants to come at me.

 

[po18guy]

The gig's up.

 

[Stomper]

$10 says the "seasoned citizen" is sick and tired of seeing people EVERYWHERE rampantly behaving badly (stealing, burning, looting, squatting, assaulting, etc.) without ANY consequences whatsoever and perceived someone doing the same in front of him and has had enough.

That being said, it's better to be a good witness than a defendant in court, if at all possible… looks like he may have had his "Falling Down" event and snapped.

 

[308]

Golf course, Grocery store….something needs to be done with these 70+ seasoned citizens

 

[RX-79G]

I'm 76 and female. If the 70 year old male thought I was shoplifting he would probably be much slower to pull a gun on me than he would on a 40-year-old male. On the other hand, he would be more likely to grab me and figure he can physically control me with impunity, perhaps search me without permission, etc. I'd speak softly and gently and say " You're making a mistake. I didn't steal anything, and I have the receipts to prove it. Lets get a manager here to sort it out." Then I'd call loudly for a manager. If an employee turned up I'd ask her to stay with us and explain guy wouldn't let me leave so I was actually kidnapped, and continue calling for manager. If 70-year-old guy put his hands on me I would NOT pull my EDC. I would instead break his collarbone with my handy dandy Cane Masters walking/fighting cane. The right collarbone if possible in case he is right handed. That's painful enough so the odds are good that he'd be out of it. I'd be watching for him to draw a gun or knife, though, and if he did I'd break that arm or wrist too. I wouldn't draw my EDC at all. The cane has the advantage that it would already be in my hand, as I need it to get around these days. In addition, a gun is really only designed to apply lethal force. The cane gives me a choice. A hard head blow with a heavy hickory cane is likely to be lethal or to at least cause unconsciousness and brain damage. Unless the guy draws a gun there is nothing to suggest lethal force is appropriate. In addition, if the store was full of people, deploying or shooting a gun isn't optimal.

The collarbone blow is easy to do, likely to be incapacitating, but likely to heal completely once set, doing no permanent damage. Collar bones are meant to be broken, and to protect the other bones by breaking. Blows to the long bones of arms or legs can break them and redirect their motion, and are likely to be fixable. Hard blows to elbows or knees incapacitate the limb and may or may not be fully fixable.

If I were in a store and saw someone trying to steal, I'd just tell an employee or manager and get out quick so they don't have the option of trying to take up my time being a witness.

This is a recipe for getting shot.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Like others said above guy must have got tired of seeing it. Here are some recent posts re theft on Pdx stores from nextdoor FYI:

 

[American123]

This is a recipe for getting shot.

That seems to be how it played out anyway. From the article, after the initial verbal confrontation, some form of physical altercation began. Likely the old guy (70) confronting the younger guy (40) was on the losing end of that physical confrontation when the shot was fired, but starting a confrontation and then claiming "self defense" doesn't go that well in court.

 

[Bobbygun]

He's the one that pulled the gun, he'd be lucky if I didn't tear out his throat or shoot him in the face. Mental whatever gets zero quarter with me. I don't go looking for trouble but I will end it immediately if to wants to come at me.

C'mon maaaaaan. You can't go around shooting EVERY mental case. There's an ammo shortage doncha know? At least stay clear of Portland and D.C.

 

[RVTECH]

I'm wondering if there is a 'common thread' with men in this age category and irrational, violent behavior.

There was the recent golf course shooting, this one and there have been some others I have read about as well.

I know several men in this age category and some express 'militant' attitudes about certain things they see or experience. One, who is in this category, and a local HAM radio operator, often expresses his 'opinions' about things was recently complaining about a neighbor he apparently doesn't get along with and said, 'Maybe if I put a bullet at his feet he'll get the message' - which was something he shouldn't have said 'on air' - but he is known for similar talk as well.

 

[RX-79G]

I'm wondering if there is a 'common thread' with men in this age category and irrational, violent behavior.

I don't think it is an age as much as a time. I think the world conformed better to certain people's prejudices for most of their lives, and now they are getting uncomfortable or confused having to deal with the fact that their awfulness is no longer going to be tolerated.

They are going to under charge the 70 year old. Had this been a different man and a different victim, he'd be up on kidnapping and attempted murder.

 

[RVTECH]

They are going to under charge the 70 year old.

I was surprised to hear it was only one count of 1st degree assault.