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Food for thought

Discussion in 'General Firearm Discussion' started by oknow, Aug 30, 2015.

  1. oknow

    oknow amboy wa. Well-Known Member

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    http://www.alloutdoor.com/2014/12/1...ent=2015-08-29&utm_campaign=Weekly+Newsletter

    Question for Open Carry Advocates: What if Muslims Start Doing It?

    Posted December 16, 2014 in Gun Safety by Jon Stokes

    - See more at: http://www.alloutdoor.com/2014/12/1...mpaign=Weekly+Newsletter#sthash.AXaWSaXy.dpuf

    I’ve been thinking recently about the way that the Satanists are having a field day with so many laws that Christians are passing under the “freedom of religion” banner: stunts like putting a statue of Satan next to the Ten Commandments, or Satanist plans to hand out literature to school kids in Orange County. What if, I wonder, certain groups were to exercise their open carry rights in the same manner.

    What if there were a group of Muslim open carry advocates who called themselves “Sword of the Prophet” and whose avowed mission was to bring Sharia law to the US, and they took to showing up armed and in large numbers outside of churches on Sunday, the way the OC guys do at the state house. Or what if there were a group of hispanic activist OCers, maybe an offshoot of La Raza who liked to organize armed protests at police stations and court houses, and who openly advocate the “reconquista” of the Southern US?

    Regardless of what OC advocates would answer to any of this, I’m pretty sure the general public would be none too pleased.

    What I also wonder is if those who are pushing for open carry, or “constitutional carry” as they’re now calling it, have thought this through. This isn’t a rhetorical question; I’m really dying to know.

    And not only is it not a rhetorical question, but it’s not a theoretical question, either, because this will happen. Part of the impetus behind gun control laws in the 70’s was the fact that the Black Panthers were the original “open carry” advocates, and the sight of black radicals walking around openly armed contributed greatly to public support for gun control laws. In describing this phenomenon of the late 60’s, lefty historian Rick Perlstein writes:

    Things shifted, of course, when the Panthers started patrolling rich white neighborhoods, including the one where a right-wing supporter of Ronald Reagan in the state assembly, Don Mulford, lived. When the assembly debated Mulford’s subsequent bill to ban the carrying of loaded firearms in public places, Panthers strolled onto the floor of the state assembly fully armed. The Mulford Act passed right quick after that—and, ironically, one of the nation’s first high-profile gun control laws was signed by Governor Ronald Reagan.

    So again, I ask, what happens not just to open carry but to the current wave of support for looser gun laws, when avowed revolutionaries tool up and tell white America to “come and take it?”

    Update: This post has generated a lot of apparent confusion about what I actually think, with half thinking that I’m a Muslim-hating redneck and the other half thinking that I’m a liberal. Well, let me clear it up: I’m a pro-2A liberal, and I think that if open carry is the law then Muslims should absolutely be allowed to carry. Nowhere in this post do I even hint otherwise. The question I’m asking here is not, “should Muslims be allowed to carry”, but, as the title says in bold letters, “what happens if they start carrying?” In other words, what happens to the public’s support for loosening up gun laws if they see armed Muslims walking the streets?

    I have yet to see a single commenter actually address the question that I asked, and I’ve been doing this long enough to know that when that happens, it’s my fault for not being clear enough in the post. So again, let me be clear: I take it as a given that if OC is the law, Muslim citizens will and should be allowed to exercise their 2A rights, so the question I’m asking is, can the American public handle the sight of armed Muslims walking the streets?

    - See more at: http://www.alloutdoor.com/2014/12/1...mpaign=Weekly+Newsletter#sthash.AXaWSaXy.dpuf

    talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard space
     
  2. decklin

    decklin WA Well-Known Member

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    The law is the law. It applies to everybody regardless of race, gender, creed, or religion.
    If they are protesting peaceably then who cares? It's their Right.
     
  3. The Heretic

    The Heretic Oregon Well-Known Member

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    What would happen?

    You would see a lot of open carry advocates figuratively dump a load in their pants and scramble all over themselves trying to get a law passed against it.

    There are a lot of hypocrites out there who don't think about such "what if" issues. Freedom of speech is okay until you are talking about burning the US flag or publishing porn. Freedom of religion is the ability to shove Christianity down the throats of kids in school, but start teaching about Islam and they will be out protesting demanding the heads of the teachers and principals. :rolleyes:
     
    d2the3 likes this.
  4. decklin

    decklin WA Well-Known Member

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    You can't possibly believe that. Are you seriously saying that most open carriers are racist or otherwise intolerant? That is just not true.
    Take a look at NWFA. It is full of threads saying Muslims, etc are evil.

    Then take a look at opencarry.org
    There are no such threads.
    That site is full of tolerance.
     
    slimer13 likes this.
  5. Joe13

    Joe13 NW of Vancouver Opinionated & Blunt Bronze Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    More guns is better no matter who is carrying them. For every muslim who takes to open carry, I'd bet 5 more christians who do not now would then start.

    Give everyone guns and drugs and let darwin figure it all out;)
     
  6. The Heretic

    The Heretic Oregon Well-Known Member

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    I am saying many people are hypocrites, and that I would not be surprised to find just as many among open carry advocates as anywhere else - thinking that they are no exception to the rule, especially when it comes to a minority view.

    I personally believe that each law abiding adult has the right to open carry, but I think parading around with ARs or AKs is just stupid and counterproductive.
     
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  7. Just Jim

    Just Jim Well-Known Member

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    It is foolish to open carry, it just let's the bad guy know you are armed. That cop in Texas had a gun in plain view and was wearing a vest but it didn't stop the bad guy from sneaking up on him and killing him. His open carry just set the tactics of the bad guy to be a sneak attack.

    You open carry and they will know you are armed and they will change their tactics. Think it out, what would you do in their place? Hide your gun but learn to use it quickly from its hiding place.
     
  8. The Heretic

    The Heretic Oregon Well-Known Member

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    The people who open carry today are not doing it for protection; they think they are making a political statement.

    Actually, they are engaging in a self-defeating tactic that alarms people who would otherwise not be thinking about second amendment issues and quite possibly would not support anti-gun legislation, but by using these tactics, the people who practice open carry, push the bystanders over the line into being more sympathetic to the anti-gun side.

    The only people who are applaud open carry are other open carry advocates, the rest of us either think it is stupid and self-defeating, or threatening.
     
  9. Joe13

    Joe13 NW of Vancouver Opinionated & Blunt Bronze Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    I just think if everyone open carried, it would solve a lot of issues. i am not advocating open carry as a smart way to go in todays opinions.
     
    oknow likes this.
  10. Chee-to

    Chee-to Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Ya but, those thumb sucking , porn watching, atheist flag burners, are the ones trying to take our guns...:eek:
     
  11. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    As already noted, the law applies to all citizens equally. I have no more issue with an open carry person whether they be Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Atheist, Agnostic, Democrat, Republican or even Ginger ;) So long as whoever they are is doing so legally and they're not doing it to stir up sh!t or commit a crime. And I, for one, would really rather that folks not open carry long guns, I really don't see the need, save for maybe a serious national disaster, for example, where folks are protecting themselves from rioters or looters. I think a pistol on the hip is plenty.

    I am a believer in the Constitution and the rights afforded/protected by it. I would probably best classify my political views as conservative Libertarian. The constitution does apply to all law-abiding citizens of the US, regardless of race, creed, religion, color or political affiliation. To believe that any particular group should be exempted from the exercise of those rights would be hypocritical of me. I like the idea of as many people exercising the 2nd amendment as possible. The more the merrier.

    But again, all of that is based on the premise that people are following the law, and not taking the law or enforcement of religious rules (such as Sharia law), into their own hands. Break the law, and all bets are off.

    Now, a follow-up question to the OP - what exactly does a "Muslim" look like? Is the assumption that they are somehow identifying as Muslims? Maybe a sign or banner? Can you identify someone as Muslim by the color of their skin? The fact that they have an accent? Certain articles of clothing? A beard? There are dark-skinned, middle-eastern Christians just as there are white Muslims. So I think the question is a bit muddied for that reason.
     
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  12. mkwerx

    mkwerx Forest Grove, OR Well-Known Member

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    While I think oc of long guns in urban areas is counterproductive and asinine - I support the rights of any lawful gun owner carrying a firearm lawfully. I think a group of little brown people or bearded guys in turbans showing up and doing an oc rally might be the ticket to getting AR Bubba and SKS Cletus to reevaluate their general jackassery with doing the oc demonstrations.

    I don't want to be compelled by law to hide my gun or face legal ramifications if it prints or gets exposed accidentally - which is the flip side of the oc rally crowds coin. I prefer choice and deciding how I carry as am adult decision left to myself.

    Its like laws against public nudity. Not something I do myself - not a fan of nude rallies or the naked bike ride. But I dont want a bunch of naked asshats marching around a school or walking into Winco and forcing the normal average people to start pushing laws against it because - as Lars Larson pointed out a while back - the law currently protects a guy who stops to take a piss on the side of the road from getting charged for indecent exposure. If your not tugging the trouser taco or otherwise engaging in or performing a sex act for you or another persons gratification there is no crime. To me its the same logic - if I am at the store and I grab something on the top shelf andy gun shows - I like that I am protected by the law and not punished. Other states arent so goodd - print or have your gun exposed in Florida or New Jersey - you can get hit with brandishing charges. The adamant oc crowd could push the law makers into that with their antics. Texas passed an oc law in spite of these types not because of them. Oregon won't be so lucky if the rifle toting tards don't knock it off. Aside from 941 we have damn good gun laws - lets not screw that up.

    And op - constitutional carry and oc are different creatures. Constitutional carry activists simply call for doing away with permitting and allow any legal gun owner to carry open or concealed without a government permisdion slip in your wallet. Constitutional carry is how it should be - and fifedoms like portland and seattle etc should NOT have the ability to infringe upon that right.
     
  13. decklin

    decklin WA Well-Known Member

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    Well looks like I misunderstood what you meant.
     
  14. Medic!

    Medic! What just happened? Has eagle eyes. But cant remember what he saw. Bronze Supporter

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    Look......... You open carry if you want. You will get both good and bad attention.

    And you will get my attention. And that helps.;)
     
  15. ConcreteJungle

    ConcreteJungle Eugene Well-Known Member

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    I believe this to be 85% true. I've met multiple people who open carry on a regular basis because that's what they're comfortable with. But then again...there are tons who turn on a camera, strap a pistol or rifle to themselves and wait for the police to interact with them. That type of action generally doesn't help the cause of the general pro-gun community.
    Everytime I see/hear about a demonstration/rally with open carry in a Walmart/Starbucks/Home Depot...I cringe and want to slap the idiot who organized it. Things of that sort do nothing to help the pro-gun community, it's simply looked at as a political stunt/statement.
     
  16. oknow

    oknow amboy wa. Well-Known Member

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    @etrain16 and @mkwerx
    This was an article I found interesting and thought I would share it (as shown with the link) please don't shoot (question) the messenger I cannot answer for the author.
     
  17. Dyjital

    Dyjital Albany, Ore Flavorite Member Bronze Supporter

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    My issue:

    Jihadists OCing at a church. That is a direct threat to safety and intimidation.

    Not like OCers at a state legislature.

    Totally different. Open carry all you want. Maybe if mooslems do it then the government will say it's allowed because God forbid you can't discriminate against mooslems.
     
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  18. ConcreteJungle

    ConcreteJungle Eugene Well-Known Member

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    I believe you're trying to spell Muslims.
    And freedom of religion.....one of the foundations this great country of ours was built on. It wouldn't be the government telling you not to discriminate against Muslims...it's our Constitution telling you not to discriminate against ANY religion.

    And i'll respond to your post with a quote from an earlier post.

    I believe the "OCers at a state legislature" would pose more of a threat considering all of the assassinations/attempts made on politicians in our history. I can't think of a single "threat" made by Jihadists at a church.
     
  19. 41Slinger

    41Slinger Harrisburg Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    If you are doing something to draw attention to yourself or to make a political statement, the results will have different meanings and endings determined by those you affect and you give up control of the situation in the end.
    I support open carry from a position of no penalty for the action, meaning if I walk into Dari Mart with my 41 mag on my hip, shouldn't be a issue, however I don't really need to walk into the same store carrying my 300 win mag slung over my shoulder unless maybe your car don't lock, whatever, not the best situation but still no penalty. However if you are going to suit up with your mall ninja full battle gear and walk around town waving your AK, even though it is perfectly legal to do so, you are going to draw attention and influence opinion and your results may not end up what you were after. I don't care who you are or what your religious affiliation is as long as you are a legal citizen of the USA. I don't give a tinkers damn if you are straight, gay, bi, trans, pink, green, whatever as long as you abide by the laws of the USA. If you don't make a point of letting everyone know what your religious or sexual preference is then it's a non issue, same goes for open carry theoretically. I carry all the time and I don't want issues if I print or my shirt rides up just because the antis are put off because of the actions of some people going to Star Bucks to make a statement. Organized protests that are intentionally arranged and everyone knows your coming, no suprises, to make a point are a much better way to make the open carry point in my opinion. I totally agree that the 2A is the 2A and open carry is definitely a major part of the 2A and should be allowed without penalty, but anything carried to the extreme is going to have issues. JMHO
     
  20. mkwerx

    mkwerx Forest Grove, OR Well-Known Member

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    Didn't see a link above except for the original post?