Flaked out....what next?

[Ops]

Is their name Kellogg and a bit Frosty?

 

[Belial]

If I sell a gun, meet at FFL, buyer inspects, buyer pays me cash, I hand gun to FFL and leave.
If FFL does not want to hold gun during background waiting period, I don't use him.................

Someone who gets it^^^^^^^^^

One and done for the seller. If the buyer can't pass it is not the sellers problem anymore. Buyer owes a fee to the FFL once the BGC is started IMHO on a private party transfer anyway, and I am not transferring possession of a firearm without payment in my hand. FFL possession of the firearm is assurance they get paid for the transfer. No payment, no firearm. YMMV

 

[308Tom]

Just a question for someone out in the universe. So I had a pistol sold and we were waiting on the back ground check to go through but the guy backed out and presumably the check will go through. So what do we ( I ) need to do if the deal is now off to keep things legal and squared up? Thanks in advance!

So I am guessing this is a private transfer and either you or your state requires a background check to complete the transfer. From an FFL Dealer's point of view, if a dealer sale the transfer is completed when the Disposition entry is made into the Acquisition and Disposition Logbook. The Disposition entry is not made until the physical transfer is complete (sale complete and BCG OK). So if a Dealer Sale and the buyer fails to take possession (for whatever reason), it is just an open Disposition entry that will be completed when the item is finally and physically transferred to a buyer. If a private sale with a BCG run by an FFL, then no Acquisition or Disposition entry is required until and unless the physical transfer takes place. So either way it is irritating and annoying, but otherwise just a delay in finally selling the item to someone. If you paid a fee for an FFL to run a BCG then you are out that fee (buyer should have paid).

On the other hand if you gave physical possession of the gun before you had confirmed cash in hand, that is on you and a poor business practice.

If you still have possession of the gun, then there are no legal ramifications - just an incomplete transaction.

BTW, I would badmouth the individual and refuse to do any type of business with him in the future.
.

 

[mad ox]

As an 01 FFL who does private sales, there is no problem legaly for you to keep the firearm if the buyer backs out during the background check. The clearance comes back as a "proceed", not a "completed". A proceed is not binding. The transfer is not complete untill The 2nd signature of the buyer on the 4473 and the FFL takes possession of the firearm. Notify the FFL the sale is canceled and move on.

Best practice for private sales is;
Meet at FFL inspect firearm.
Seller leaves with firearm. Buyer pays FFL transfer fee and fills out paperwork.
FFL submits for clearance.
Clearance comes in.
Buyer and seller return to FFL.
Buyer gives seller cash, seller gives firearm to FFL and leaves.
Buyer completes paperwork.
FFL logs firearm in and back out to buyer and gives the buyer the firearm.

That way if the buyer backs out while waiting for clearance, nobody looses anything. Seller still has firearm and has no further legal obligation, FFL got paid their fee, and buyer got their background check, though there's nothing they can do with it as it only applies to the firearm on the paperwork.

Some other scenarios that are possible;

If the seller backs out, then the buyer got screwed for the transfer fee.

If the seller leaves the firearm with the FFL during the clearance process and the sale is canceled, the seller has to do a background check to get the firearm back.

 

[41mag]

Something not discussed here, happened to me in a transfer from a dealer in another state. My local FFL had received pistol, inspection passed, payment sent. A few days later I was notified it was a stolen gun. Local LEO'S took possession from FFL before transfer was made.

This demonstrated not only is purchaser being vetted, so is the item. Now i do not pay until item itself clears.

Seller was surprised by stolen notice. He returned purchase price.

 

[Leslie Shaw]

no, there is a successful background check record the guy could claim. There hasn't been any case law on this that I'm aware of but technically a BGC is a record of transfer and if he passes the OSP has a record that the gun is in his possession.



call the OSP before he does and explain the situation and tell them you have the gun and want it re-checked in your name and address. You will have it on record, at least with the OSP database, with a timestamp after the other guy that you own the gun. Also... if the check hasnt cleared yet maybe just ask the FFL to cancel it?

You can cancel the background. I have had to do it several times with buyers remorse. You still have the gun and he his money .

 

[arakboss]

First off I second the position of only taking cash or trade if you trust the FFL to handle the transfers fairly.

I understand this is not OP's situation but it could come up. If I get the cash and the buyer gets delayed and wants to back out, I will offer to return their cash minus any fees that I have to pay the FFL to get the firearm back. Some shops like Tigard Pawn will charge me the regular fees to get the firearm back. some shops won't charge the seller to get their firearm back.

 

[arakboss]

As an 01 FFL who does private sales, there is no problem legaly for you to keep the firearm if the buyer backs out during the background check. The clearance comes back as a "proceed", not a "completed". A proceed is not binding. The transfer is not complete untill The 2nd signature of the buyer on the 4473 and the FFL takes possession of the firearm. Notify the FFL the sale is canceled and move on.

Best practice for private sales is;
Meet at FFL inspect firearm.
Seller leaves with firearm. Buyer pays FFL transfer fee and fills out paperwork.
FFL submits for clearance.
Clearance comes in.
Buyer and seller return to FFL.
Buyer gives seller cash, seller gives firearm to FFL and leaves.
Buyer completes paperwork.
FFL logs firearm in and back out to buyer and gives the buyer the firearm.

That way if the buyer backs out while waiting for clearance, nobody looses anything. Seller still has firearm and has no further legal obligation, FFL got paid their fee, and buyer got their background check, though there's nothing they can do with it as it only applies to the firearm on the paperwork.

Some other scenarios that are possible;

If the seller backs out, then the buyer got screwed for the transfer fee.

If the seller leaves the firearm with the FFL during the clearance process and the sale is canceled, the seller has to do a background check to get the firearm back.

Some shops don't allow seller to keep the firearm while background check is being done.

 

[spider]

Since you still have the gun, you are good, there isn't any record of the gun going into the FFL books then being released to him. So you are a-okay. But the FFL might be out the $10 for the background and their transfer cost. And of course you and your time.

 

[spider]

We get a lot of people, who say they want to run a background check to see if they can pass.

Which is not how it goes, since you only run a background check AFTER they made the purchase of the gun.

Then if they flip flop or get delayed or denied, we can refund them everything but the $10 Background check for Oregon and the transfer fee (if they had a firearm come in from another FFL) If the buyer flip flops early enough, the FFL doing the background check can call OSP FICS and cancel it and not have to keep the $10 since the FFL will not be billed.

But think about the freaking time, you had to spend, explaining the 4473, waiting for it to be filled, then getting prints, then keying in the applicant and the firearm information. Really is a complete PITA process.

So, don't worry about it. At least you went to an FFL that didn't store your firearm through this transaction. Or else it would be in their logbooks, then you would have to pay $10+storage fees and do a background check to get it back. Some members on here might have a argument about it. But most members do not have an FFL or have had to provide paper trail proof in regards to any firearm transfer interaction at a moments notice.

The ATF is no joke when it comes to paperwork.

 

[DizzyJ]

Please tell me the transfer paperwork was not done before the background check.
No transfer, no problem.
Best,
Gary

Isn't it always done in that order?
I've always filled out the paperwork first since the FFL can't run it if you've answered any of the questions incorrectly.

Now, that said, I believe the FFL doesn't sign off on it until the background check ones through with the confirmation number.

 

[edg6868]

I went through that once... my 2 cents ... cash only and the FFL holds the gun ... then you are not involved....if buyer flakes out ... the shop can sell it.

 

[Member 38805]

Ok, if you had a deal, and the buyer sent you funds, but the firearm was never transferred legally, then there's no legal issue for either of you. Until the transfer of the firearm was started by a licensed FFL and you, there's no difference. He could have sent you a check for a hammer, a baseball, or any object, and it's no difference. The difference only begins with transfer.
Now how you handle the deal from here out is different, and the ball is really in your hands. If you cashed the check, and didn't receive a copy of his FFL dealer's license, then you're guilty of fraud. If he stops payment on the check, then he's guilty of fraud.
You guys need to communicate face to face, or on the phone and decide how to work this out, and whether he owes you any money for a deal he backed out of. Beyond that, there's nothing but trouble if either party proceeds without another agreement on how this should be resolved.
If it was me though, I'd simply tear up the check, and move forward with relisting the gun and finding another buyer.

 

[Mikej]

Just a question for someone out in the universe. So I had a pistol sold and we were waiting on the back ground check to go through but the guy backed out and presumably the check will go through. So what do we ( I ) need to do if the deal is now off to keep things legal and squared up? Thanks in advance!

I think there's some misunderstanding here? I'm reading this as THE BACKGROUND CHECK will go through. Not that a check was written for the purchase of the gun.

 

[dobeman]

I think there's some misunderstanding here? I'm reading this as THE BACKGROUND CHECK will go through. Not that a check was written for the purchase of the gun.

Correct.
and to the OPs point that the buyer flaked during the wait for BGC, the FFL shop can undo the transaction. They hold the paperwork. If they are holding the gun during BGC, buyer flakes, the seller might have to go through BGC to get the gun back. But OP says he is in possession of the gun. So OP.. it's yours to do with as you please (legally of course). Be a little more picky on buyers next time. And make your requirements/process known up front. They don't like it, they can go elsewhere and not waste anybody's time.

 

[DangerDog]

This is why I only do private sales with a bill of sale and cash. But folks wanna "follow the law" up here so is what it is.

 

[mad ox]

Some shops don't allow seller to keep the firearm while background check is being done.

That is up to the shop. There is no lgal obligation for the shop to do so. Suggest find another FFL

 

[RVTECH]

We get a lot of people, who say they want to run a background check to see if they can pass.

Which is not how it goes, since you only run a background check AFTER they made the purchase of the gun.

I may be missing something but is/was there any specific reason(s) when all this was 'designed' why the BGC can only be made AFTER the purchase?

I mean what would have been the problem if the 'system' had allowed for the BGC to be made before the sale ?

FFL would be paid and if buyer failed then all walk. If the buyer passes he pays the seller, receives the gun and all walk.

Again maybe I am missing something or was this too 'sensical' for the system so they had to complicate it?

 

[slm9s]

So as a seller if you meet the buyer at an FFL and you take payment and leave and then the buyer fails the BGC the gun store now owns the gun? Is that really how it works?

 

[mad ox]

We get a lot of people, who say they want to run a background check to see if they can pass.

Which is not how it goes, since you only run a background check AFTER they made the purchase of the gun.

Then if they flip flop or get delayed or denied, we can refund them everything but the $10 Background check for Oregon and the transfer fee (if they had a firearm come in from another FFL) If the buyer flip flops early enough, the FFL doing the background check can call OSP FICS and cancel it and not have to keep the $10 since the FFL will not be billed.

But think about the freaking time, you had to spend, explaining the 4473, waiting for it to be filled, then getting prints, then keying in the applicant and the firearm information. Really is a complete PITA process.

So, don't worry about it. At least you went to an FFL that didn't store your firearm through this transaction. Or else it would be in their logbooks, then you would have to pay $10+storage fees and do a background check to get it back. Some members on here might have a argument about it. But most members do not have an FFL or have had to provide paper trail proof in regards to any firearm transfer interaction at a moments notice.

The ATF is no joke when it comes to paperwork.

That is generally the process for a retail sale. Private sales are different. The 4473 and here in WA, the state form both have a box to check for private sales. There also has to be a SN. The sale is considered pending during the check. Again both NICS and LEO use the word "Proceed"

If would be cheaper I think just to go to their LEO and request a records check on themselves. Then there is no chance they could get busted for lying on the 4473

As a random thought, I would think someone fishing to see if they can pass a check is lying on the yes/no question. Here in Washington a denied is reported to WSP They are supposed to follow up and possibly prosecute someone lying on the paperwork. Never heard of it being done though.