FAL or AR

[SurvivalistSong]

Let's leave it at that Riot. You've had your chance to criticize and I've had mine. Any more, and it'll just be an infinite loop of useless debating.



Chances are good that both you and me would be able to survive a shtf.


Relax.


You never know if we'll ever cross paths and collaborate.

Keep an open mind.



Your tactic is just as sound as mine. It's all up to personal discretion.

 

[SurvivalistSong]

And in all reality, I'd probably ride out an entire SHTF situation hunkered down in my house with family and friends (everybody armed to the teeth and on constant watch for people approaching our property) and never stepping outside for anything.

I'm a prepper, so I naturally have enough supplies for months.



and chances are, I assume in SHTF, you would also hunker down in your home with family and friends and never step outside unless deemed necessary.



And also chances are both of us would not shoot eachother because we're not looking for trouble since we are fully prepared and not desperate.

 

[SurvivalistSong]

and if I ever do need to evacuate, there is a large forest near my neighborhood in which I have backpacked in before and I have the supplies to hunker down in the woods for months (tarps, bivy sacks, tents, stove, fuel, nonperishable food, etc,etc, etc)

 

[SurvivalistSong]

I think the best tool to have during shtf is friends and family.

 

[slimmer13]

Is that a sextuple post?

 

[SurvivalistSong]

Is that a sextuple post?

LOL

 

[Crispy]

5.56 fmj does not have adequate expansion for an ideal fight stopper for anything bigger than a coyote. You can get the good stuff but costs go up dramatically. .308 doesnt need expansion to leave a big enough hole to end a threat without return fire.

Is there any 5.56 FMJ designed to expand?

 

[mjbskwim]

Let's leave it at that Riot. You've had your chance to criticize and I've had mine. Any more, and it'll just be an infinite loop of useless debating.

Love this
Enough Riot,after I make 9 more posts...?

Anyway,here's a video on 5.56 and ballistic gel.

 

[MikeE]

Also, I've watched all the Nutnfancy videos, so I am set!

 

[slimmer13]

Is there any 5.56 FMJ designed to expand?

The table in that link shows it better than cut and paste


Summary Table of Tested Loads and Results
Bullet Type / Mass 11 inch Shorty
Velocity 16 inch CAR
Velocity Expanded
Diameter Depth of
Penetration Retained
Weight
40 gr Hornady V-Max
(RBCD / LeMas, Ltd) ~3000 fps ~3300 fps 0.257 in 75 mm
3.0 in 5.4 gr
13.5%
55 gr Nosler CT Ballistic Silvertip
(Winchester Supreme) 2562 fps 3032 fps 0.398 in 128 mm
5.0 in 15.9 gr
28.9%
55 gr FMJ-BT
(South African Surplus Ball) 2771 fps 3205 fps NA 268+ mm
10.6+ in NA
55 gr Trophy-Bonded Bear Claw
(Federal Premium Vital Shok) 2726 fps 3035 fps 0.431 in 165 mm
6.5 in 52.7 gr
95.8%
60 gr Nosler Partition
(Ultramax) 2568 fps 2951 fps 0.416 in 210 mm
8.3 in 52.2 gr
87.0%
62 gr FMJ-BT
(M855 / SS109 Ball) 2683 fps 3078 fps 0.473 in1 253 mm
10.0 in 43.2 gr
69.7%
64 gr Soft Point
(Federal Power-Shok) 2544 fps 2928 fps 0.392 in 160 mm
6.3 in 35.1 gr
54.8%
64 gr Power Point
(Winchester Super-X) 2348 fps 2820 fps 0.478 in 180 mm
7.1 in 56.6 gr
88.4%
75 gr Match Hollowpoint
(Black Hills) 2330 fps 2640 fps 0.415 in 196 mm
7.7 in 54.4 gr2
72.5%
75 gr Hornady Hollowpoint
(Hornady TAP FPD) 2336 fps 2639 fps 0.425 in 214 mm
8.4 in 57.3 gr3
76.4%
75 gr Swift Scirocco
(Precision Crafted Ammunition) 2356 fps 2634 fps 0.472 in 240 mm
9.4 in 73.7 gr
98.3%
77 gr Sierra Match King
(Buffalo Bore Sniper) 2447 fps 2778 fps 0.352 in 231 mm
9.1 in 34.0 gr
44.2%

 

[Crispy]

The table in that link shows it better than cut and paste


Summary Table of Tested Loads and Results
Bullet Type / Mass 11 inch Shorty
Velocity 16 inch CAR
Velocity Expanded
Diameter Depth of
Penetration Retained
Weight
40 gr Hornady V-Max
(RBCD / LeMas, Ltd) ~3000 fps ~3300 fps 0.257 in 75 mm
3.0 in 5.4 gr
13.5%
55 gr Nosler CT Ballistic Silvertip
(Winchester Supreme) 2562 fps 3032 fps 0.398 in 128 mm
5.0 in 15.9 gr
28.9%
55 gr FMJ-BT
(South African Surplus Ball) 2771 fps 3205 fps NA 268+ mm
10.6+ in NA
55 gr Trophy-Bonded Bear Claw
(Federal Premium Vital Shok) 2726 fps 3035 fps 0.431 in 165 mm
6.5 in 52.7 gr
95.8%
60 gr Nosler Partition
(Ultramax) 2568 fps 2951 fps 0.416 in 210 mm
8.3 in 52.2 gr
87.0%
62 gr FMJ-BT
(M855 / SS109 Ball) 2683 fps 3078 fps 0.473 in1 253 mm
10.0 in 43.2 gr
69.7%
64 gr Soft Point
(Federal Power-Shok) 2544 fps 2928 fps 0.392 in 160 mm
6.3 in 35.1 gr
54.8%
64 gr Power Point
(Winchester Super-X) 2348 fps 2820 fps 0.478 in 180 mm
7.1 in 56.6 gr
88.4%
75 gr Match Hollowpoint
(Black Hills) 2330 fps 2640 fps 0.415 in 196 mm
7.7 in 54.4 gr2
72.5%
75 gr Hornady Hollowpoint
(Hornady TAP FPD) 2336 fps 2639 fps 0.425 in 214 mm
8.4 in 57.3 gr3
76.4%
75 gr Swift Scirocco
(Precision Crafted Ammunition) 2356 fps 2634 fps 0.472 in 240 mm
9.4 in 73.7 gr
98.3%
77 gr Sierra Match King
(Buffalo Bore Sniper) 2447 fps 2778 fps 0.352 in 231 mm
9.1 in 34.0 gr
44.2%

FMJ? What FMJ is designed to expand? *Full Metal Jacket

 

[slimmer13]

I would think FMJ would fragment more than expand. The jist of the blackhawk down incident was if I remember right the NATO stuff wouldnt frag reliably leaving skinnies with several through and through wounds allowing them to run off or stay in the fight. Im sure some are better than others, not sure which though. Id say most people stock up on the cheap stuff though. So my point is that it doesnt matter what you run through your .308.

 

[knuckle Head]

I would think FMJ would fragment more than expand. The jist of the blackhawk down incident was if I remember right the NATO stuff wouldnt frag reliably leaving skinnies with several through and through wounds allowing them to run off or stay in the fight. Im sure some are better than others, not sure which though. Id say most people stock up on the cheap stuff though. So my point is that it doesnt matter what you run through your .308.

Not questioning you on this, but it sounded like you were not for sure for sure, I am going to run this by the military experts and see what they have to say

 

[Crispy]

I would think FMJ would fragment more than expand. The jist of the blackhawk down incident was if I remember right the NATO stuff wouldnt frag reliably leaving skinnies with several through and through wounds allowing them to run off or stay in the fight. Im sure some are better than others, not sure which though. Id say most people stock up on the cheap stuff though. So my point is that it doesnt matter what you run through your .308.

That is what I was getting at, but just in case I wanted to know if had missed some radically new FMJ design for the 5.56 that would catch my interest. So I wanted to ask you what you were getting at. The 5.56 FMJ is not designed to "expand". It was more designed to penetrate, then tumble and fragment once it hit a target, at least that is the info that I can find.

 

[slimmer13]

5.56 fmj does not have adequate expansion for an ideal fight stopper

Did I say it expands? Again, 5.56 fmj (which I would say the vast majority run)does not adequately expand (it does some but not enough) or reliably fragment enough to be my first choice as a bad guy stopper. Bubblegum I need a beer.

 

[Crispy]

Did I say it expands? Again, 5.56 fmj (which I would say the vast majority run)does not adequately expand (it does some but not enough) or reliably fragment enough to be my first choice as a bad guy stopper. Bubblegum I need a beer.

You said, "5.56 fmj does not have adequate expansion". By saying that it does not have adequate expansion, you are implying that it in fact expands.

If your getting that wrapped around the axle over this, maybe you should have a beer.

 

[slimmer13]

done, now I need a nap. Been up since three

 

[Grunwald]

The way I see these tests of the 5.56, I can only conclude that it will do more damage to the fat guy than the skinny guy. If you hit someone skinny, chances are the bullet will exit the body before it has a chance to do it tumble and fragment trick.

 

[kenno]

Kenno, I understand your reasoning but when will anyone ever need to shoot out to 800 yards in SHTF situation. As for penetration into cars, (hell even buildings for that matter) 5.56 green-tip works great.

Penetration at what range?
Any AR will put down a soft target, even a grazing wound at extreme range will discourage most assualters.
There are a few rules of wining a fight I keep in mind:
Distance is safety, If my gun is "bigger" I get to pick where the fight takes place. If my gun has a 200 yard advatage over the bad guy's gun I get to fight him at a distance without breaking a sweat. Going out into the opponent's thrill zone, because I have the same size gun he does, is bad planning.
Cover: If my gun is bigger the cover required to stop my bullets becomes less common which inhibits the baddies freedom of movment and increases thier casualities, a 308 will shoot through most cars leangthwise, it will penetrate windshields at extreme range, the only sure way to stop a vechicle borne assualter, once stopped the vechicle will NOT offer protection for the baddies from precision fire.
A sniper's job in any setting is to use a big gun to control the battle field, if I have a smaller gun my only option is to retreat or take casualtys, yeilding control to the baddies.
We are talking a SHTF situation, if I have a safe haven groups of baddies wll know about it because eventually, even if my area is not looted by individuals or organized gangs in the early weeks, someone will notice signs of habitation and want what I have.
It is a terrible mistake to underestimate external threats and I forsee sophicated, well equiped, gangs operating to a pre-determined plan to destroy infrastructure first, as well as your usuall collection of perps and pediophiles, druggies, arsonists and home invaders.
It will take more than a big gun, it will take a militia and tactical defensive planning, comms, a chain of command and supplys.
And of course you'll want one of these:

 

[Just Jim]

I should stir the pot here but you guys are doing fine allready

jj