FAL or AR

[unionguy]

The .308 is a solid "do everything pretty well" round...from tactical defense, to hunting, to medium range sniping. If you can only have 1 rifle, I'd go .308. I got a FAL before I did an AR for that very reason. The FAL is an extremely reliable platform. I have the AR if I was in a situation where I only to defend an urban/suburban area.

 

[branchbuster]

When was the last time you saw .308 going for thirty cents a round?

 

[Riot]

there is one problem with your post. and that is you have no point.

*sigh*

Alright...well here's the breakdown.

in a suburb/urban area during shtf, you most likely have most people out and about cooperating and not harming eachother... looking for supplies and help.

You will also have an influx in people shooting each other, stealing TVs, raping and looting.

The point of carrying a rifle would be to deter or neutralize the "bad apples" of the population that WILL harm you for their own gains.

You are either a target or you are not a target, there is no in between. Although it is unlikely that your average criminal to go head on with you because he/she sees a firearm, nevertheless you are just as likely to become a target because you have a firearm.
Example being I'm another unprepared survivalist (like you) looking for ointment in WalMart. I see you with a rifle (I chose to conceal carry a pistol or sawed off shotgun to look like another sheep in the herd) and I think you are a threat to me. Nevertheless, I need that ointment you just grabbed off the shelf.

BAM! I shoot you, take your rifle and the ointment.

in a situation like this where you remain in close proximity to other people, you DO NOT want overpenetration.

If you are worried about liability from collateral damage during SHTF then maybe having a rifle in an urban setting is probably the wrong choice to begin with.

imagine this very likely scenario: you get a cut from a piece of rebar while trekking through a disaster zone and you ran out of antibiotics. luckily your local walmart, although ransacked and pillaged, still might have some antibiotic ointments left. you walk to there and find many people scavaging for supplies. although they don't have a smile on their faces, they are not harming you, and minding their own business.

lol

Sorry, am I the only one that finds this funny? An armed looter in a store that feels safe around other looters because (for now and as far as he knows) he's the only one armed.

suddenly, a man with a pistol rushes into the store and starts shooting and yelling "this store now belongs to me!". You have people panicking and running everywhere to safety. Would you want a .308/7.62NATO that'll rip through him, a brick wall, and several other people (exxageration)?

Mkah, let me make this clear. The entire reason we prep is to avoid situations like this...to avoid being surrounded by desperate sheep in a desperate situation where you have what they need in the first place. If, for whatever reason, you deamed to raid this establishment for an item you need to have a way better plan than a stroll in WalMart with your rifle on a sunny day by yourself. But, alas, I feel you have no idea what I am talking about...us military guys would call people like you a "textbook warrior".

On a side note, if I had to shoot in a collapse situation I would rather have FMJ overpenetrating than some JHP/BT round under penetrating. If you own body armor then so do the bad guys. In fact, after a collapse expect an outbrake of convicted felons breaking out of prison/jail and acquiring LEO supplies and weapons.

Trust me, even incarcerated inmates are planing for a collapse...and most want it!

what would be the purpose of lodging a huge 7.62NATO round in a man during shtf?

To drop him the first time you shoot him.

you are talking about a situation where people are trying to survive. even the "bad guys" are just trying to survive.

Did I miss some peace ralley for the looters here or what?

a 7.62NATO may be nice in a battlefield/war where people are willing to SACRIFICE their life to fight, but when we're talking about shtf, a single 5.56NATO/.223 will neutralize the threat. why? because one hit of a 5.56NATO will send ANY man running when he is trying to SURVIVE. plus, in a shtf scenario, a 5.56NATO to anywhere on the body (besides extremeties) would result in a fatality due to lack of medical services available, and the same goes for 7.62NATO. So the mortality rate of getting hit by a 5.56NATO and a 7.62NATO would be equal.

Sure, a person may survive a 5.56NATO in a battlefield after getting hit in the abdomen because of the medical treatment facilities readily available... but in shtf, all the doctors and surgeons are hiding in their bunkers with their canned beans. And have you seen the ballistics gel results of 5.56NATO and 7.62NATO? although, ofcourse, the 7.62 leaves a larger wound channel... both rounds would be MORE THAN SUFFICIENT to incapacitate or kill. most incapacitations will likely result in death due to infections and bleeding and lack of available medical services. the human body is at times resilient, but also extremely fragile.

True, but when we shoot someone we want them nuetralized NOW, not a week from now due to sepsis.

and ofcourse there's the issue of weight of the rounds. if you're ever in a situation where you have to pull out your rifle instead of a handgun or shotgun, it will most likely be in an engagement distance of 50yds or more. in such a situation, the main tactic used would be to cover fire and move. in other words, you will be using many many many rounds in the hopes of moving in for the kill, or deterring the bad guy and persuade him to leave. Also during shtf, even if you had a bugout vehicle, walking would probably be the main mode of transportation because it is quiet and requires no petrol. have you ever served in the armed forces? the difference between carrying a M4 and a combat loadout and carrying a rifle comparable to a .308 FAL and a combat loadout is like the difference between heaven and hell after you've patrolled 15 miles. the 7.62 round is considerable larger and heavier than the 5.56NATO, and .308 rifles tend to be heavier than .223 rifles.

Why not throw in the hat for 7.62x39? I'm sure the vietcong would argue the effectiveness of the AK-47 over the M16A1. They didn't seem to have complaints about lugging in the heaver bullets.

But let's say i'm out on patrol in my bugout vehicle with a buddy, and i'm out to get some more supplies from pillaged stores. I would personally carry an AR-15 slinged across my chest, a 9mm handgun holstered by my waist, and a 12g shotgun in my trunk. why would i not bring my m1A?

You would be a dream come true to a man with a concealed pistol and just one bullet.

I think some defensive firearm training, for you, is called for.

 

[bnz43]

308 hands down .223 is for varmits ,7.62x51 is for trucks!

 

[mjbskwim]

You mean an AR10?

AR10 is the first AR in 308 but there are other brands out there.Actually it is the very first AR

I would get one of both or at least shoot both to see which one you like better.
I bought a G3 clone (not running yet) and would like to try the FAL but the good ones are around a grand.
Now in some of the other threads I have read that the AR is more accurate at longer ranges than the FAL.So if the 'reach out and touch someone' idea is what you are looking for I would say the AR platform

Now FN Herstal makes a FAR semi auto mag fed 308 that is ridiculously accurate. Local gun shop owner has one and put 3 rounds in and inch at 100 easily.May have been less but haven't seen the target for a while. It is around $1400 though.

Oh and I always like to tell what a ex-relative Viet Nam era sniper told me.He recorded more kills with a bolt action than anybody did with their auto loaders
Just sayin'

 

[8ball29]

1. Which are you most proficient with (esp. shooting with irons)?
2. Do you have the necessary tools and knowledge to troubleshoot and repair said rifle?
3. Can you afford the weight of the FAL, and how much ammo can you carry on your person?
4. Can you afford to stock up on .308 or is the cheaper 5.56/.223 more viable?
Possibly more that can't think of right now.

 

[Blackelk]

Thanks for all the food for thought.

 

[kenno]

disreguarding costs as a factor I would pick a 308 because of it's penetration power which is very important against vechicles and buildings, not to mention the 800 yard effective range which gives a great advantage over 556 and X39's

 

[8ball29]

Kenno, I understand your reasoning but when will anyone ever need to shoot out to 800 yards in SHTF situation. As for penetration into cars, (hell even buildings for that matter) 5.56 green-tip works great.

 

[The B]

Kenno, I understand your reasoning but when will anyone ever need to shoot out to 800 yards in SHTF situation. As for penetration into cars, (hell even buildings for that matter) 5.56 green-tip works great.

many o' fiat has been put to death on dusty roads by the 5.56.

 

[mjbskwim]

Kenno, I understand your reasoning but when will anyone ever need to shoot out to 800 yards in SHTF situation. As for penetration into cars, (hell even buildings for that matter) 5.56 green-tip works great.

Exactly
Why let the guy at 800 yards know your location? Very few people are any good from that distance anyway.
So someone at 800yards will either stop your heart or throw hail marry's to try to hit you.Most likely the later...if they even know you are there.

I would watch them but try not to engage them unless necessary at that distance.

 

[jdub75]

Get:
1: 5.56 AR
1: .308 AR

Same controls, so same training/muscle memory. MANY of the same parts (especially on the lower receiver). New shooters tend to pick up the AR controls easier than the FAL (assuming you may need some help along the way). Also, walk in to 6 different gun shops, and chances are you'll find many parts for AR's, and maybe a mag for a FAL. Let the spouse carry the 5.56 & you the .308. Problem solved!

 

[SIG383]

Not exactly a SHTF round, but I love my 6.5x47 Lapua. She's beyond accurate and can make a 5 shot group at 500yds that's covered with a quarter. Only downfall is a box of 20 costs $60. I reload for it, but still not the cheapest, and can't just go to the local general store or walmart to pick up another box. If things do go south, I will be using her for long range until I exhaust all ammo and reloading supplies. At that point, it will be a $6000 club, lol!

 

[8ball29]

Exactly
Why let the guy at 800 yards know your location? Very few people are any good from that distance anyway.
So someone at 800yards will either stop your heart or throw hail marry's to try to hit you.Most likely the later...if they even know you are there.

I would watch them but try not to engage them unless necessary at that distance.

I'm glad you see my point. Everybody and their mother can talk about being mister gung-ho lob-a-bullet, but your going to look like a jackass in the process.
The whole reason to have a defensive firearm is to defend, not engage "potential" threats at long distances.

Another point is that this person may be carrying supplies on his/her self and now you have to expose yourself for an extreme length of time to scout/retrieve the stuff.

 

[slimmer13]

5.56 fmj does not have adequate expansion for an ideal fight stopper for anything bigger than a coyote. You can get the good stuff but costs go up dramatically. .308 doesnt need expansion to leave a big enough hole to end a threat without return fire.

 

[mjbskwim]

5.56 fmj does not have adequate expansion for an ideal fight stopper for anything bigger than a coyote. You can get the good stuff but costs go up dramatically. .308 doesnt need expansion to leave a big enough hole to end a threat without return fire.

Really? So you are saying that a 5.56 though the heart,head,main artery,etc won't stop a man?
And that a FMJ is a good stopper for a 'yote?

:huh::beer:

 

[slimmer13]

No no its just fine if you can expect to get a head/heart/artery shot every time in the heat of the moment under stress. You ever read Blackhawk Down? And Ive dropped more than one yote in his tracks with cheapo Wolf or PMC bronze, but that was a good shot from rest, in the kill zone, not exactly a stressful situation.

 

[slimmer13]

Tactical Test

 

[SurvivalistSong]

There are way too many problems with this post...too many to point them all out. But I will say this- if you are taking your gun for a walk while looking for antibiotic ointment...alone....slung over your back...just in case a dude runs in with a gun...then you (and people like you) are the reason why I will be as far away from the city as possible.

I think you need some training on force on force...maybe a sim-round course or one of the NWFA courses. Or maybe just shut off the computer.

everybody has their opinions.

 

[SurvivalistSong]

*sigh*

Alright...well here's the breakdown.






everybody has their opinions.



Look here buddy, I could also go on and break down your arguement and we would be in an endless debate. Just as you've criticized basically every point I've made, I could just as easily criticize your points.

For example, let me keep my points this time brief.











Originally Posted by SurvivalistSong

there is one problem with your post. and that is you have no point.
*sigh*

Alright...well here's the breakdown.





in a suburb/urban area during shtf, you most likely have most people out and about cooperating and not harming eachother... looking for supplies and help. You will also have an influx in people shooting each other, stealing TVs, raping and looting.

that's why I said "most" people will be non-violent. you will have people who are violent, but the majority of people you see won't snap yo sh!t up for your supplies. We don't all suddenly turn into animals. Morals exist.




The point of carrying a rifle would be to deter or neutralize the "bad apples" of the population that WILL harm you for their own gains. You are either a target or you are not a target, there is no in between. Although it is unlikely that your average criminal to go head on with you because he/she sees a firearm, nevertheless you are just as likely to become a target because you have a firearm.
Example being I'm another unprepared survivalist (like you) looking for ointment in WalMart. I see you with a rifle (I chose to conceal carry a pistol or sawed off shotgun to look like another sheep in the herd) and I think you are a threat to me. Nevertheless, I need that ointment you just grabbed off the shelf.

BAM! I shoot you, take your rifle and the ointment.


So basically you would kill me for my supplies. This is just as easily done with a rifle as it is with a pistol. If I wanted to steal your vodka or that car battery you're holding, I can hop out of my car, pop you in the head from 100 yds, and steal your car battery. oh and your vodka.



in a situation like this where you remain in close proximity to other people, you DO NOT want overpenetration. If you are worried about liability from collateral damage during SHTF then maybe having a rifle in an urban setting is probably the wrong choice to begin with.

the debate is over .308 or .223. hence, i am sticking with my .223 arguement.





imagine this very likely scenario: you get a cut from a piece of rebar while trekking through a disaster zone and you ran out of antibiotics. luckily your local walmart, although ransacked and pillaged, still might have some antibiotic ointments left. you walk to there and find many people scavaging for supplies. although they don't have a smile on their faces, they are not harming you, and minding their own business. lol

Sorry, am I the only one that finds this funny? An armed looter in a store that feels safe around other looters because (for now and as far as he knows) he's the only one armed.

a wolf in sheep's clothing is treated like a sheep. a wolf with only his fur is feared like a wolf. a sheep in sheep's clothing dies.





suddenly, a man with a pistol rushes into the store and starts shooting and yelling "this store now belongs to me!". You have people panicking and running everywhere to safety. Would you want a .308/7.62NATO that'll rip through him, a brick wall, and several other people (exxageration)? Mkah, let me make this clear. The entire reason we prep is to avoid situations like this...to avoid being surrounded by desperate sheep in a desperate situation where you have what they need in the first place. If, for whatever reason, you deamed to raid this establishment for an item you need to have a way better plan than a stroll in WalMart with your rifle on a sunny day by yourself. But, alas, I feel you have no idea what I am talking about...us military guys would call people like you a "textbook warrior".

Do you have enough medical supplies to last you a very long time, or if your best friend came up to your door with a stab wound? If you do, congrats. But you're bound to run out of something eventually. If I do not want to be noticed, I would ofcourse bring only a concealed pistol. If I do want to be noticed, I would sling a rifle over my chest. I'm glad you have military training, and thanks for serving our country. But your lethality and effectiveness can only compare to your level of training. do know that there is training available for us civilians.

On a side note, if I had to shoot in a collapse situation I would rather have FMJ overpenetrating than some JHP/BT round under penetrating. If you own body armor then so do the bad guys. In fact, after a collapse expect an outbrake of convicted felons breaking out of prison/jail and acquiring LEO supplies and weapons.

Trust me, even incarcerated inmates are planing for a collapse...and most want it!

I fully agree with you here




what would be the purpose of lodging a huge 7.62NATO round in a man during shtf? To drop him the first time you shoot him.

i agree here too. I never said that the 7.62NATO does not possess more stopping power than the 5.56.




you are talking about a situation where people are trying to survive. even the "bad guys" are just trying to survive. Did I miss some peace ralley for the looters here or what?

I'm talking about how in shtf, even the "bad guys" are aware that medical services are not available. They are trying to survive.





a 7.62NATO may be nice in a battlefield/war where people are willing to SACRIFICE their life to fight, but when we're talking about shtf, a single 5.56NATO/.223 will neutralize the threat. why? because one hit of a 5.56NATO will send ANY man running when he is trying to SURVIVE. plus, in a shtf scenario, a 5.56NATO to anywhere on the body (besides extremeties) would result in a fatality due to lack of medical services available, and the same goes for 7.62NATO. So the mortality rate of getting hit by a 5.56NATO and a 7.62NATO would be equal.



Sure, a person may survive a 5.56NATO in a battlefield after getting hit in the abdomen because of the medical treatment facilities readily available... but in shtf, all the doctors and surgeons are hiding in their bunkers with their canned beans. And have you seen the ballistics gel results of 5.56NATO and 7.62NATO? although, ofcourse, the 7.62 leaves a larger wound channel... both rounds would be MORE THAN SUFFICIENT to incapacitate or kill. most incapacitations will likely result in death due to infections and bleeding and lack of available medical services. the human body is at times resilient, but also extremely fragile. True, but when we shoot someone we want them nuetralized NOW, not a week from now due to sepsis.


What is the difference between shooting somebody in the abdomen with a 5.56 and a 7.62? not much. according to ballistics. if you shoot somebody in the arm with a 7.62, he will still function the same as he did if he got shot with a 5.56. You shoot any of the vital organs with both rounds, and he will go down. it's the whole 9mm vs. .45ACP arguement....





and ofcourse there's the issue of weight of the rounds. if you're ever in a situation where you have to pull out your rifle instead of a handgun or shotgun, it will most likely be in an engagement distance of 50yds or more. in such a situation, the main tactic used would be to cover fire and move. in other words, you will be using many many many rounds in the hopes of moving in for the kill, or deterring the bad guy and persuade him to leave. Also during shtf, even if you had a bugout vehicle, walking would probably be the main mode of transportation because it is quiet and requires no petrol. have you ever served in the armed forces? the difference between carrying a M4 and a combat loadout and carrying a rifle comparable to a .308 FAL and a combat loadout is like the difference between heaven and hell after you've patrolled 15 miles. the 7.62 round is considerable larger and heavier than the 5.56NATO, and .308 rifles tend to be heavier than .223 rifles. Why not throw in the hat for 7.62x39? I'm sure the vietcong would argue the effectiveness of the AK-47 over the M16A1. They didn't seem to have complaints about lugging in the heaver bullets.

My friend's grandfather was vietcong. he said they only carried around 100 rounds AT MOST. Many of their engagements were pure guerilla tactics. Move in, Move out. Not the U.S tactic of move in, take ground, and protect the perimeter of newly acquired territory. The vietcong did not have to carry 200-300 rounds as their combat load out. Especially the ones armed with slow rifles like the mosin.





But let's say i'm out on patrol in my bugout vehicle with a buddy, and i'm out to get some more supplies from pillaged stores. I would personally carry an AR-15 slinged across my chest, a 9mm handgun holstered by my waist, and a 12g shotgun in my trunk. why would i not bring my m1A? You would be a dream come true to a man with a concealed pistol and just one bullet.

sorry buddy. i just don't see myself strolling into an abandoned store without my rifle. I personally would not just bring a concealed pistol. you can do what you want dude.

I think some defensive firearm training, for you, is called for.

Nah, I'll think I'll do just fine. I got a neighbor who's a cop and a family friend who has agreed to collaborate during shtf or emergencies, and my best friend is a Marine back from Iraq and he has agreed to hunker in my house during shtf because he lives in a crowded apartment. I have weapons I know how to use. I've already had firearms training with an ex-soviet policeman multiple times. I have months of food, water, and medical supplies. I have thousands of rounds. I have communication and emergency gasoline. I have a house that is easy to navigate and protect. I would use my discretion to whether or not conceal my weapon. If it is early into a shtf and i'm in a public area, I would obviously carry a concealed pistol. But if sh!t really goes down, and its long term shtf, and all the stores are abandoned and looted... you'll see me carrying my rifle. if you see me, i invite you to try shooting me with your concealed pistol buddy. Cuz if it's a long term shtf, and its months into it, there won't be many people in the store. Me and my buddy will have my eyes on you. And if i see you fumbling for your pistol... pop pop pop like popcorn and its over for you. Do you get my point? Tell me why you military folks brandish your M4s and M16s in busy Afghani village markets? Why not just carry a concealed pistol? Aren't you being a huge target for those taliban snitches? It's the same concept is it not? It's the balance between subtleness and potential for being treated like a sheep. It's all up to personal discretion. Look here buddy, I'm not gonna brandish my rifle in a thousand people crowd near the superdome any time soon. i am talking about long term shtf, when sh!t goes down.


Goodluck if shtf comes. we'll all need it.