Dumbest things you've heard at the gun store

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True. My dad helped feed his family of five siblings and four adults during the depression by harvesting deer by shooting them in the head with a .22 rifle. My mother helped feed the family by shooting giant snowshoe rabbits in the head in Alaska right after WWII. Many/most deer poachers even today probably often use .22s because the sound doesn't travel far compared with major calibers. I ran into one guy who was living almost totally on poached deer. He shot them in the head with a 22 rifle. Any other shot and the deer runs too far before dying to find in the dark.

SD with a .22 is different issue from effective hunting, as if you are under attack from a human mere feet away, for example, you need instant incapacitation. And a chest shot or several with a .22 won't usually incapacitate fast enough unless its a brain shot. Even .357s and 9mms frequently don't incapacitate fast enough for SD purposes with chest shots. For SD using a .22 I figure all brain shots. For SD with a .38sp or equivalent or better I practice first two shots to brain, the rest to the chest. This is also useful if bad guy is wearing a vest.
On the plus side, a .22 semiauto pistols have such light recoil you can rapid fire 10 shots into a tiny group in a very short time. You just need one with a decent trigger. Ruger 22/45, S&W 22A and the like.
 
Regarding .22LR and self defense...

While I have no doubt that a .22LR firearm will serve....its the .22 ammo that I am more concerned with.

When a .22LR firearm experiences a "Dud" round or a failure to extract or eject at the range or a shooting session...its not too big of deal.
But...
If that were to happen in a self defense situation...then it could be life ending.

Of course a solution to this is to use reliable ammo....which in most times ain't difficult to get...but nowadays may be tough to come by.
Andy
 
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Regarding .22LR and self defense...

While I have no doubt that a .22LR firearm will serve....its the .22 ammo that I am more concerned with.

When a .22LR firearm experiences a "Dud" round or a failure to extract or eject at the range or a shooting session...its not too big of deal.
But...
If that were to happen in a self defense situation...then it could be life ending.

Of course a solution to this is to use reliable ammo....which in most times ain't difficult to get...but nowadays may be tough to come by.
Andy
To offer a differing opinion based on my experience, the reliability problems I've experienced with .22s has largely been firearm related rather than ammo. In a poor example, I have a 10-22 that will run anything and everything while I've also had a Walther G22 and SIG mosquito that were marginal at best with all ammo, including the highly regarded and much more expensive CCI varieties. That said, in general my .22s have a failure 10:1 or so as compared to my centerfire guns so I'll agree that using one as a main defensive tool gives me pause
 
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To offer a differing opinion based on my experience, the reliability problems I've experienced with .22s has largely been firearm related rather than ammo. In a poor example, I have a 10-22 that will run anything and everything while I've also had a Walther G22 and SIG mosquito that were marginal at best with all ammo, including the highly regarded and much more expensive CCI varieties. That said, in general my .22s have a failure 10:1 or so as compared to my centerfire guns so I'll agree that using one as a main defensive tool gives me pause
May I offer a counterpoint to your differing opinion? ;-)

I have a case of Remington "military match" .22 that misfires on average one in every 20 rounds. This is consistent across half a dozen firearms including revolvers, pistols, semi-auto rifles and bolt-action rifles of varying quality. The failure rate doesn't change much between them. I have also a case (and I don't mean a brick) of CCI MiniMags and a case of Federal American Eagle CPHP. The CCI never fails in anything. The American Eagle does very well, with maybe one failure per 1000 or more. As you may guess I have shot tens of thousands of rounds of .22 just from these three cases, and have probably a dozen other brands in smaller quantities. I find that a properly working gun doesn't appreciably increase the misfire rate.

Now to FTF/FTE. Most semi-autos will shoot any of the above reasonably well but I've found that some conversions and .22 LR AR15's can be a little finicky. I have found that MiniMags and Federal AutoMatch will usually run reliably in those. I've probably shot a few thousand AutoMatch with good results.

I have run across guns that just won't run reliably, and as you might guess, they will run better with the more reliable brands but not perfectly.

Most of the rounds that fail to fire will fire if loaded back into the gun. With a revolver or bolt action, I just turn the cartridge in the chamber 1/4 turn or so to allow the firing pin to strike the rim in a different spot.

My understanding is that during the manufacturing process, the primer is poured into the case in a liquid state and the case is then spun to distribute the primer evenly throughout the rim (which is hollow) where it is allowed to dry. If an air bubble forms or the amount or viscosity of the primer is off by enough, a section of the rim can be missing some primer.

The feeding issues with some semi-autos I'm only guessing at, but I would think the higher quality ammo may have more consistent case dimensions.

My conclusion, based on years of shooting different guns and brands of ammunition is that, assuming we're dealing with a properly functioning gun, some brands of .22 LR ammunition are very reliable and some are not.
 
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At a veteran run LGS a few years ago and an older customer was loudly proclaiming how millennials don't know the meaning of hard work (I put aside the fact that "millenials" are 28-40 yrs old and he was probably thinking of Gen Z).

After listening to him pontificate for a few minutes about the laziness of millennials I decided to speak up and just said "oh millennials? Like my brothers and I that have been fighting two wars for the past twenty years? Doesn't seem lazy to me"

Lesson of the day is don't make blanket statements about people.
 
To offer a differing opinion based on my experience, the reliability problems I've experienced with .22s has largely been firearm related rather than ammo. In a poor example, I have a 10-22 that will run anything and everything while I've also had a Walther G22 and SIG mosquito that were marginal at best with all ammo, including the highly regarded and much more expensive CCI varieties. That said, in general my .22s have a failure 10:1 or so as compared to my centerfire guns so I'll agree that using one as a main defensive tool gives me pause
I am glad that you have had better luck with your .22LR firearms , to include the ever popular 10-22.
I have owned and shot 10-22's , some worked well with any ammo...others did not function with standard velocity ammo or wouldn't chamber certain brand or types of .22 ammo.

Having owned and shot many different types of .22LR firearms , of various vintages and design / action type...
As well as using a variety of different .22LR brands and types...
Its been my experience , that the reliability of .22LR ammo has been the issue , not so much the firearm.

Edit to add :

I have no doubt that a .22LR firearm will serve or even work well for defense....You just gotta know what ammo works best with that particular firearm.
Andy
 
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Was at a shop and the owner was trying to talk an older gal out of buying a ruger mk whatever for home defense. " You need something with more stopping power", he says. She looked like she couldn't weigh more than 80 lbs and told the owner that's what she wanted because she knew how to use one.
I kind of chuckle and shake my head which seemed to upset him. He tried to convince me it wouldn't have enough stopping power to do anything. "Well hell then, let me shoot you, just once, and we'll see if you want to stop with that BS" I tell him and laugh. He turned red as a tomato and stormed off to the back.

Ask Bobby Kennedy about the .22LR. Oops, can’t.

Better talk to Sirhan Sirhan, then.




P
 
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The J frame revolver is difficult for even experienced revolver shooters to shoot well. And because of its light weight, it is seriously unpleasant to shoot, even with standard 38 no plus p or .357 mags. A K frame snubby would have been a much better choice in revolvers. The j frame has a very heavy DA trigger pull compared with the medium frame K and L frame because the working surfaces are smaller. It is no gun for beginners IMO.

You had your mom in the store, so could have made sure she could rack the slide and work other controls before buying any semiauto. I think that with some training, anyone mentally competent enough to own or shoot a gun can learn the mechanics of any modern semiauto. But that doesn't mean they will remember it if the gun largely sits unused after initial training. And that's the normal pattern for elderly people introduced to guns just for protection after already elderly. I agree that the DA revolvers function is a lot more intuitive, esp. in double action. Point gun. Pull trigger. Easiest to learn, easiest to remember. However I think getting good with a revolver in DA is probably harder than getting good with most semiautos. But you don't have to be very good to hit a bad guy at a few feet away.
Just remember not all J frames are DA only, and not all of them are snub nose! One of my wifes favorite guns is a J frame in 32 , with a 3" barrel, and a hammer! Another is an old Rossi J frame size in 22lr with a 3" barrel. DR
 
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A friend once told me of meeting some buddies out at the local rock quarry where they were shooting .22 lr rifles. One guy in particular was swinging his gun around and being very unsafe. He called him on it, and the guy retorts "It's just a twenty-two, can't hurt anyone."

He picked up one of the soup cans that they had shredded with .22 bullets, and asked, "So, is your flesh harder or softer than this steel can?" He said the guy got white as a sheet and shut up.

The problem with .22s isn't that they can't do the job; it's that they can't do it as reliably. Shoot an attacker with a .22 lr and he might: 1. Drop in his tracks, DRT. 2. Run off, because nobody wants to get shot (and either be fine or drop over dead the next day), or possibly 3. Just get angry and shove that gun up...

I think the last is the least likely, but it's statistically more likely with a "mouse gun" than with something bigger.
If things go seriously tits up, and all you have is a .22 and the time to get it right, just shoot the BG in the eye.

Any eye will do.

He WILL drop.

Sue me if I'm wrong.
 

Capn Jack

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Shot placement is the key. Shooter Dog Sniper.jpg
 
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The J frame revolver is difficult for even experienced revolver shooters to shoot well. And because of its light weight, it is seriously unpleasant to shoot, even with standard 38 no plus p or .357 mags. A K frame snubby would have been a much better choice in revolvers. The j frame has a very heavy DA trigger pull compared with the medium frame K and L frame because the working surfaces are smaller. It is no gun for beginners IMO.

You had your mom in the store, so could have made sure she could rack the slide and work other controls before buying any semiauto. I think that with some training, anyone mentally competent enough to own or shoot a gun can learn the mechanics of any modern semiauto. But that doesn't mean they will remember it if the gun largely sits unused after initial training. And that's the normal pattern for elderly people introduced to guns just for protection after already elderly. I agree that the DA revolvers function is a lot more intuitive, esp. in double action. Point gun. Pull trigger. Easiest to learn, easiest to remember. However I think getting good with a revolver in DA is probably harder than getting good with most semiautos. But you don't have to be very good to hit a bad guy at a few feet away.
I did confirm that she couldn't rack it at the store and they basically treated me like a male chauvinist that I was talking down to my mom and they argued that with practice she could work the pistol. This emboldened my mom and she stopped listening to my opinion and bought the handgun out of spite. It was later when we got to her house that she tried multiple times to rack thenslide and operate slide release that she finally realized I was right. It was so stupid and frustrating.

I have to disagree with your opinion on the J frame. Theyre super easy to operate and my mom is by no means a marksman. This handgun would be a belly gun for her to deterr a threat most likely. And we did take it to the range and she did quite well with it loaded in 38.

Personally I love J frames and have 4 of them. With my colt snub nose and the hammer drawn back, I can hit a static clay pigeon at 75 feet all day long and I'm satisfied with that performance.
 

OldBroad44

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I did confirm that she couldn't rack it at the store and they basically treated me like a male chauvinist that I was talking down to my mom and they argued that with practice she could work the pistol. This emboldened my mom and she stopped listening to my opinion and bought the handgun out of spite. It was later when we got to her house that she tried multiple times to rack thenslide and operate slide release that she finally realized I was right. It was so stupid and frustrating.

I have to disagree with your opinion on the J frame. Theyre super easy to operate and my mom is by no means a marksman. This handgun would be a belly gun for her to deterr a threat most likely. And we did take it to the range and she did quite well with it loaded in 38.

Personally I love J frames and have 4 of them. With my colt snub nose and the hammer drawn back, I can hit a static clay pigeon at 75 feet all day long and I'm satisfied with that performance.
Hello @bigezfosheez . Sounds like part of the problem was your mother did not respect or recognize your knowledge about guns, and had no desire to be learning from you. So she deserted listening to you the instant she had an alternative. Some middle aged and older folks resent any situation in which they are expected to learn from someone significantly younger than themselves. and even those willing to learn from someone else younger may resent and feel uncomfortable with the role reversal involved in learning from their own son or daughter. I'm glad things worked out for your mom when she started listening to you.

A "J frame" is a SW DA revolver of the smallest frame size SW manufactures. You refer to hitting clay pigeons all day at 75' with your J frame Colt, but a Colt is not a J frame, and vice versa. However, one to three of the others might be real J frames. And any small revolver that is actually pleasant to shoot and accurate is something I'd like to hear more about. I'm beginning to suspect you know something about this subject I don't know and would like to.

Could you tell us the specific manufacturers, models, and barrel lengths of the four small revolvers you have, and how accurate they are for you?
 

ZigZagZeke

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@tac We have our own problems and laws to deal with. The way things are handled in other countries may or may not be important to some.
Add to that the condescending and snide comments that we receive from about 95% of Europeans over American gun policy, and our toes are a bit tender too. You're an excellent fellow, @tac, and I always enjoy your perspective. NWFA wouldn't be the same without you.
 
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Hello @bigezfosheez . Sounds like part of the problem was your mother did not respect or recognize your knowledge about guns, and had no desire to be learning from you. So she deserted listening to you the instant she had an alternative. Some middle aged and older folks resent any situation in which they are expected to learn from someone significantly younger than themselves. and even those willing to learn from someone else younger may resent and feel uncomfortable with the role reversal involved in learning from their own son or daughter. I'm glad things worked out for your mom when she started listening to you.

A "J frame" is a SW DA revolver of the smallest frame size SW manufactures. You refer to hitting clay pigeons all day at 75' with your J frame Colt, but a Colt is not a J frame, and vice versa. However, one to three of the others might be real J frames. And any small revolver that is actually pleasant to shoot and accurate is something I'd like to hear more about. I'm beginning to suspect you know something about this subject I don't know and would like to.

Could you tell us the specific manufacturers, models, and barrel lengths of the four small revolvers you have, and how accurate they are for you?
You're right my mistake, I always assumed the colt detective special was a J frame. My understanding of J frame was just a smaller snub-nose style revolver. Even a Google search of j frame brought up this screen shot as the top result. Kind of like "xerox" or "bandaids" becoming general descriptions.

Screenshot_20211123-084749_Firefox.jpg
 

OldBroad44

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You're right my mistake, I always assumed the colt detective special was a J frame. My understanding of J frame was just a smaller snub-nose style revolver. Even a Google search of j frame brought up this screen shot as the top result. Kind of like "xerox" or "bandaids" becoming general descriptions.

View attachment 1075702
Thanks @bigezfosheez . That clears up the minor matter of nomenclature.

Are all four of your small revolvers Colt Detective Specials? Tell me more about exactly what you have! Pretty please, appropriately cherry augmented???
 
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Thanks @bigezfosheez . That clears up the minor matter of nomenclature.

Are all four of your small revolvers Colt Detective Specials? Tell me more about exactly what you have! Pretty please, appropriately cherry augmented???
Just one is a Colt, I like that one the most. I have a 5 shot Taurus 85(their pistols are junk, but i don't mind their revolvers) A S&W 637, which usually just sits in the safe, and a Rock Island M206 which is a literal piece of garbage(some internal piece seems to be jamming and the cylinder/trigger lock after every shot...timing is okay though). I mainly like the profile and grip size that allows me to firmly grip and more accurately shoot.
 
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So I have a new LGS experience.

Sportsmans warehouse has a sale on Norinco SKS's for $399 so I decided to get one just for fun.

The guy at the counter first told me they only had one in stock, then came back out with another one later for me to compare and said he dug really hard and found that one. Immediately after, a coworker came up and saw the closed box and asked "is that an sks? Man we have a literal pile of those in back" to which my clerk answered "haha yeah, I know right?"

I was inspecting the bore of the two rifles and he kept pushing for me to buy the one that had a nicer stock on it. It wasn't original or numbers matching like the one I was leaning towards.

He looked very obviously angered that I didn't choose the one he wanted me to get. Then he began to tell me that they have a lot of kick and I really need to watch out when shooting them.

I'm just ranting a bit, it wasn't that bad. I guess walking around with a mullet makes people assume that I'm an inbred imbecile.
 

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