Cops and concealed carry

[parallax]

Hey the puma,
I want to ask you a question, if you dont want to answer, no problem, I totally understand
You are L.E.O., How does L.E. feel about citizens having C.H.L. from what you here in the rumour mill?
A) dislike it
B) like it
C) indifferent to it.

 

[Russianfist]

Some will spout off with the "they can have my gun when they pry it from my cold dead hand" speech.
Spare me!
Call goes out of a possible B and E and possible domestic............Oh,and two of them are armed.
Wouldn't you make sure all weapons were secured until you got to the bottom of the matter?
Use your head folks.
Its good to know your rights but its wise to practice prudence.

 

[el gringo loco]

It sounds like the cops were willing to standby and allow the OP to retrieve as much property as he needed to-all with the cops ensuring that Dad didn't cause any more problems and that there wasn't another incident. If the OP had not been polite and cooperative, what do you think the chances of that happening would have been? Without the police there, the situation could have degenerated into fisticuffs and the old man's version of events might not have been so easily disproven the next time around.

These threads always crack me up. They always seem to start out with someone asking about whether or not a police officer should have/ could have/ had the right to/ was out of line to/ etc. disarm the OP. The OP almost always states that they were polite and cooperative and complied with the request. Then the OP states the cop was polite, explained his reasoning for the request, took no enforcement action against the OP, AND GAVE THE GUN BACK. Then, completely ignoring the favorable results achieved with polite cooperation, some uber-constitutionalist advises that the OP should have instead been uncooperative and a royal pain in an attempt to test a cop's ability to suppress the natural human urge to be impolite and obstinate right back. If the cop takes the bait, then that is proof positive that they are all lying, crooked, scandalous bullies ****-bent on taking your gun. This contrarian advice usually includes an anecdote like "I've never met a cop that treated me nicely," etc. Sorry, but I'm gonna go with polite cooperation. In life, I've always gotten further with a teaspoon of sugar than with a cup of vinegar.

 

[8ball]

Meth heads, sledgehammers, handcuffs and SIX cop cars!

I must be doing something wrong. I've never had that much excitement in one day!

 

[Stick]

No chance u had a firearm left in the house when he changed the locks? Might be an easy way to get rid of him for a bit.

Nope. I wanted to make sure those where in the first load out. I don't think the cops would have done anything had there been some in the house anyway.
We've had a few dealings with the cops regarding her dad and because they are both on the loan paperwork he could legally come into our house whenever he wanted and nothing could be done. I asked if the guns in the house and the fact that he's a felon would change that and they said no.
We are pretty much rid of the situation at this point, aside from grabbing a couple things from outside. I'm sure though as soon as we show up the cops will be called again. I think he's pretty afraid of both of us now that he knows we are carrying, I wouldn't hesitate to protect myself should I need to.

 

[the puma]

From reading your posts it sounds to me like your stereotyping. Just because someone is affiliated with some shady people doesn't mean they are all bad people. I personally know and see a couple times a week some of my old friends that were recently released from prison. They are friends but they are also doing life on the installment plan as I like to call it. Me? I have no record. Not a single day or night in jail. Does that make me a threat when le asks if I have any affiliation with criminals?

As far as looking in the mirror, reread the second and third sentence in the above paragraph.

As Far as your personal experience, that's your experience. I tend not to believe things I read on the Internet without actual facts or stats.

I guess I won't believe what you say without "actual facts or stats," to take a page from your philosophy.

It seems I presented an idea that you don't agree with: that having a CHL automatically makes someone a "good guy." I also added (in two different posts, no less) that a vast majority of CHL holders are fine people. I explained why having a CHL is not a guarantee, and you basically accuse me of lying. I respond with some actual examples, and now you're saying I'm stereotyping? When asked for examples of what I propose, I give specific examples, but apparently that's not good enough for you.

"Just because someone is affiliated with some shady people doesn't mean they are all bad people" is begging for a response. Because you put the word "all" in there means the sentence is most likely correct, but I firmly believe that if someone hangs out with "shady" people (OMG, street gang, felons, sovereign citizen type, etc...) they are usually of like mind and are themselves shady. Not always, but often. Have you ever heard the saying: "you are who you associate with"? From what you posted, you're choosing to associate with less-than-upstanding people. It also seems you have a lot more police contact than most people, which may explain why you think the way you do. As you so eloquently said: "As Far as your personal experience, that's your experience." On average, I've been stopped/approached by police once every three or four years in my life, most of which were for traffic stuff. It's not hard to live your life without getting "hassled by the man," and if you have a lot of police contact, you may want to reevaluate how you handle yourself or who you hang out with.

Since I believe those things, I'm stereotyping. Much like you think almost all cops are aholes. Everyone stereotypes every day. It's human nature. Stereotyping isn't bad if a person understands it's about playing the odds and isn't anything more than that. Just because I see a guy wearing his hat sideways and wearing his "tapout" sweatsuit with the pants hanging below his butt doesn't mean he's a d**bag. He probably is, but maybe not. I play the odds, but I know there are plenty of exceptions. If you claim to not stereotype, you're lying.

ETA: Not surprisingly, this thread has taken a turn. Sorry to the OP. 22many, I guess I'm an ahole since I'm a cop, and 70% of the cops you've dealt with were aholes. That's fine. You don't want to accept my reasons even though I backed up my claims with actual examples. I've said my piece and backed it up. If you choose not to accept what I say, so be it.

To the OP, acting calm and doing what was asked of you shows you were mature and handled the situation perfectly. I understand you may not be happy about being disarmed by the police, and I can't change that. All I ask (of everyone) is to look at things from the perspective of the police, and have an open mind when the reasons are presented. If, after doing that, you still disagree or have issues, at least you objectively evaluated it. Yes, there are ahole cops out there, and you may not agree with particular tactics, but asking about them and taking in all sides of the debate is the best way to make up your own mind.

 

[22many]

You have not given any facts or stats to your claim? You think just because you said so that I should believe you? As I stated, where are your facts? Your examples? Where are your examples? Is there a link with actual numbers to your claim? Or am I just suppose to believe you because you are you?

As far as me, I really don't care what you believe. But, I'm not the one that made statements about Oregon chl holders either. If you can't back up your claim with actual facts the refrain from making you hollier than thou statements!

 

[the puma]

You have not given any facts or stats to your claim? You think just because you said so that I should believe you? As I stated, where are your facts? Your examples? Where are your examples? Is there a link with actual numbers to your claim? Or am I just suppose to believe you because you are you?

As far as me, I really don't care what you believe. But, I'm not the one that made statements about Oregon chl holders either. If you can't back up your claim with actual facts the refrain from making you hollier than thou statements!

Are you serious? Really? So, you want names, dates and computer print-outs of the examples I gave you? You think I'm making this up? So, just keep asking for more and more, and when I can't or won't give you case numbers and names, you'll claim it's BS? Nice.

I'd like to know how I'm "hollier(sic) than thou."

So, you're saying that Oregon CHL holders are 100% good people with noble intentions, without exception?

 

[parallax]

HI puma, I just wanted to spout off. I personally could never be a cop, i dont have the patience for it, What you do everyday, would make me lose my sanity in a short amount of time. so kudos to you and all the men/women in blue you are probably the only thing that stands between anarchy and a structured society. that being said. I have been in the presence of a couple of cops who were total d-bags to me. I know that they are not all like that,, but now unfortunately, I paint them all with the same brush. a little about me; i am a good citizen, short hair,drive a newer truck, wear clean cloths, no drugs,no drink, no smoke. I hate criminals, probably more than anyone on this forum. I have never had anything beyond an occasional speeding ticket,(last one was in 2003). If i saw you in an upside down police car,on fire.., i would be the first to pull you out. that being said, i avoid any kind of contact with police because of a couple of a-hole cops, 2 different examples,that went ape shoot on me years ago,because they were having a bad day.
sorry, I dont think i can ever change my mind.. wish i could..

 

[baada]

Or am I just suppose to believe you because you are you?...If you can't back up your claim with actual facts the refrain from making you hollier than thou statements!

I think I smell a troll...

I propose a new forum rule: No feeding the trolls!

 

[the puma]

parallax, sorry to hear about. Unfortunately, a bad experience or two can cement someone's view about a certain segment of society. I won't attempt to "win you over" because that just can't be done in this manner. I wish you the best and hope you never have to deal with ahole cops again.

parallax, this isn't meant for you really, just something I think is worth sharing. Take it for what it's worth. Something I see every day, that many police don't understand (or care about really), is that the experience that the police have is vastly different than the experience the public has when interacting with the police. When I'm called to an incident, or stop someone, it's something I have some control over. Because it's what I do every day, it's not normally an emotional or stressful thing. Stopping a car is something I've done hundreds and hundreds of times, and they are usually low key for me. It may be a very, very stressful encounter for the person because they may never have been stopped before, or may have had bad experiences in the past. I may say something that, to me, is very innocuous, but the person may take as very offensive. It wasn't meant that way, but it was taken that way because our frames of reference are very far apart. I remember every time I've been pulled over for traffic offenses (9 times in my life...before and after being a cop) because it's stressful being pulled over. I would wager that very few, if any, of those officers remembers pulling me over. I remember the circumstances and what was said, but I know they don't. Thus is the difference in perception.

Along those lines, the things I may do when stopping someone are done for a reason. Usually, it's a tactical consideration, and may come across as harsh or rude to the person it's directed at. It's not meant in a personal manner, but it's taken that way because it's personal to them. I try to remember this every day, and accept that part of my job is to explain everything to people and, if possible, make it a personal interaction. Recently, I had a guy call me at work. He called to thank me because I was nice to him four years ago. He said he had been on a meth binge and was freaking out. I ended up arresting him for something and treated him with respect. I really don't remember much about it, because it was rather routine. He's been drug free since that incident and hunted me down in order to thank me because it made an impact on his life. I honestly don't remember 99% of the incident because it wasn't unusual or otherwise memorable to me, but it was life changing to him. What if I had been an ahole?

Lastly, when the police are involved, it's usually because something bad happened or is happening. People are upset, hurt, etc.... and they may associate the police with bad things happening. It's human nature.

/rant

I'll spare you all any further posts in this thread, unless there is a specific question. 22many, you don't believe me, and I can't change that. You win.

 

[Cougfan2]

Puma, you sound like almost every cop I have ever met; polite and professional. I too have had a couple of run ins with ahole cops in my life, but I try not to let those isolated instances color my perception of every police officer. You sound like the kind of cop we need more of.

Cheers!

 

[HollisOR]

Puma, you sound like almost every cop I have ever met; polite and professional. I too have had a couple of run ins with ahole cops in my life, but I try not to let those isolated instances color my perception of every police officer. You sound like the kind of cop we need more of.

Cheers!

2X. One thing a person can do who is not a cop and want to know more. Go to the station and ask for a ride-along. Often it is perception that taints our view. Setting in my car, I know I am the good guy, the guy in the other car may not know that and think that he is the good and I am not. In our world mistakes can turn into laughing situations or have very tragic consequences.


A friend had a sign, "Humor never leave home without it"

 

[pchewn]

Puma: You sound like the kind of cop I would want to interact with -- if needed. A couple of questions though:

1) If you pull someone over and they have a CHL, do you usually ask to see the gun?
2) If you really do "ask" to see the gun, is "NO" an acceptable answer?
3) If the person says "no" in a polite way, is this then followed by an order to see the gun, or do you just say "OK" ?

 

[Russianfist]

Puma, while I was reading this something occured to me.

Does (or did) the OP have the option to file a restraing order on a person whom they share a lease?
Perhaps the Dad wasn't an outright threat but the fact that Meth was invoved makes that person a risk?
Also does the fact that the Dad has a record play in to such an order?
Just curious if the OP had another option to remove a person even though they were on the loan/lease.

Opinion time: about half of my friends are LEO's so perhaps my view is somewhat bias. That being said, I wasn't always like this. I did my share of raising Kane and even spent a few nights in a rock box with a metal door.
If its one thing I've learned is that contrary to what most people believe Cops are not robots and Police Depts. Are not perfect machines. While the system works near flawlessly to weed out those who would not work out so well as an LEO it isn't perfect and in some cases a "bad egg" makes it through and they will make bad choices when dealing with the public. Unfortunitly, this negitive impact will leave a lasting impression on a person and could (and does) change a persons view as a whole towards all LEO's. You also need to remember that if you feel your rights have been violated then you should take the issue to that officers supervisor,Chief, or Citizens advisory board. Always document your side of the story and if its legit action will be taken. Do not be afraid of being harassed by getting a little "stick time" or pulled over for silly reasons. That only happens on TV and in Movies. If it does happen, document,document,document. At that point you contact the state Police and they will pound sand so hard that local PD will look like a beach. Still, some people will just hate cops for being cops. They think when they get pulled over they are being harassed because the cop has some personal vendetta to violate a persons rights, not because they were doing 70 in a school zone. These people with the chips on their sholders are setting themselves up for failure right from the beginning. Its all in attitude. Play nice and more times than notthe situation will resolve without a problem.

 

[the puma]

Puma: You sound like the kind of cop I would want to interact with -- if needed. A couple of questions though:

1) If you pull someone over and they have a CHL, do you usually ask to see the gun?
2) If you really do "ask" to see the gun, is "NO" an acceptable answer?
3) If the person says "no" in a polite way, is this then followed by an order to see the gun, or do you just say "OK" ?

1) not usually, unless there is something more than a traffic stop
2) legally, yes
3) it depends on the totality of the circumstances, but unless I have 'reasonable suspicion' that the gun is stolen or the person is committing a crime, I can't force someone to show me. Actually, I'd rather have the driver keep their hands on the steering wheel than reach for a gun. This is what I normally tell folks: "please keep your hands on the steering wheel and don't reach for anything, and we'll be fine"

 

[the puma]

Puma, while I was reading this something occured to me.

Does (or did) the OP have the option to file a restraing order on a person whom they share a lease?
Perhaps the Dad wasn't an outright threat but the fact that Meth was invoved makes that person a risk?
Also does the fact that the Dad has a record play in to such an order?
Just curious if the OP had another option to remove a person even though they were on the loan/lease.

Restraining orders involving domestic situations are very easy to get. They are easy because the courts have decided to err on the side of overall safety. The respondent (person getting served with the RO) can contest it, but it's very easy to get one initially. A person's criminal record, or lack therof can play into the RO process, as it may show (or not show as the case may be) a person's propensity for violence. If both parties legally lived in the house, regardless of any signed lease or other contract, and regardless of who pays for rent/utilities, etc..., the police cannot force anyone to leave without a signed and legal restraining order or notice of eviction. Oregon has very rigid tenant/landlord laws, and tenants have a lot of rights. Once someone establishes residency (gets mail at that address, has his/her ODL with that address, pays any part of rent, or has lived there long enough - usually a few weeks to about a month), they can't be forced out without a court order.

 

[RB87]

...

Furthermore, having a CHL in Oregon doesn't mean you're a "good guy" or have good intentions. It means you passed a certain background check or haven't been caught yet. I personally know of outlaw motorcycle gang members and street gang members that have Oregon CHLs, so forget the notion that having a CHL means you're above reproach. Generally, though, CHL people are fine upstanding citizens, but not always.

Hmm, sounds like a good reason to do away with CHL requirements. Open carry or concealed should be every citizen's right, as in AK or Vermont. Since you know, you can't tell if they're really a good guy or bad guy by just a background check.

As for the "war on cops" propaganda being floated about lately, here is a link to Cato's botched police raids map:

Botched Paramilitary Police Raids

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Since approximately ten times as many innocent "civilians" are shot and killed by police as the other way around I reject the notion that a legally carrying citizen is dangerous to police, it would make more sense to take the guns away from the police! Given that is true at the very least police should not have the gall to disarm citizens. To say "For our safety and yours" is a kneejerk oxymoron. Check out the stats. Unless it can be proven that police shoot and kill fewer innocent civilians than the other way around I'm not for disarming citizens under any circumstances.

Add me to this

Why wasn't the meth head father charged with making a false 911 call, and disturbing the peace? He also should have been charged with illegal entry

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Hmm, sounds like a good reason to do away with CHL requirements. Open carry or concealed should be every citizen's right, as in AK or Vermont. Since you know, you can't tell if they're really a good guy or bad guy by just a background check.

As for the "war on cops" propaganda being floated about lately, here is a link to Cato's botched police raids map:

Botched Paramilitary Police Raids

Unreal stuff there.. cops literally getting away with cold blooded murders, including several in the PNW

Totally agree.. CC permits/lisc are utterly unConstitutional and the trend seems to be doing away with them as a requirement, 3 US states now