Carry Gun Evolution

[No_Regerts]

50 yard shot with a handgun under high stress conditions...iffy at best. In Dayton, there were multiple positives happening that lead to the shooters demise. Multiple cops in extremely close proximity to the shooter, all advancing rapidly and concentrating fire. The cops were highly trained and proficient with their weapons. Dealing with threats and the unexpected is ingrained in them. The shooter who was video game trained at best had no chance against the team of professional LEO's that he was up against.
As civilian CHL holders, we may be quite familiar with our guns but we do not train nor endure the daily rigors that LEO's do.
Back to the original point from OP, so what to carry and what is practical? Is it time to throw practicality out the window? What happens though when there are multiple CHL holders with weapons drawn and taking shots at an active threat? If the police show up rapidly as they did in Dayton, how do they know who the bad guy is? All things to consider.

I'd say that just about everyone Ive shot with on this forum was every bit as accurate with their handgun as the average LEO I work with. It would just take some training in tactics, for those that haven't had it already, to be able to operate well with a handgun.

Some of the best shooters I've worked with are SWAT or......IDPA shooters. SWAT is what it is based on tactics. Even a lot of them aren't the best marksmen on the range, but their tactics is what gets the bad guy. Some of the dedicated IDPA guys are scary fast and really accurate.

In my mind, its not necessarily going to a bigger gun, its finding out what you shoot the best, and if items like an RDS make the user more effective. Maybe, maybe not. Charging into the melee isn't what I'm talking about. Its whether its worth it to change your carry gun or setup to maybe give you an opportunity to end a shooting surgically (for lack of a better term).

 

[KKG]

I started Carrying a Colt 1911A1 under my Fatigue Shirt when I was 18. As far as I'm concerned it's still my go to Carry Gun, 50 years later. The 9mm might expand but the .45 will NOT Shrink!!!

 

[No_Regerts]

I started Carrying a Colt 1911A1 under my Fatigue Shirt when I was 18. As far as I'm concerned it's still my go to Carry Gun, 50 years later. The 9mm might expand but the .45 will NOT Shrink!!!

It still amazes me how accurately I shoot a 1911 over other guns. One of the options I'm currently throwing around is carrying one again over some of my double stack polymer guns that I shoot "ok".

 

[Flymph]

I've shot the FAM course and they do pretty well with their P229s. During a requal, we were talking brands and pros and cons and I've made it known that I didn't think the first gen M&P9 was very accurate. The instructor, who beats the company drum, said it was in my head, not the gun. I usually float between mid 480's to mid 490's out of 500 shooting center mass with an M&P. With a P226, I can shoot 500s with only head shots. Same with some of the 1911s that are made these days.

Homestly, if I shoot modern subcompacts anything like I do the 1903 hammerless... the bad guy would have to be about 450lbs and no more than 10 feet away...
I can put all 15 shots in a 12" circle with a P226 at 30 yards, so for that fact alone I should probably carry that or similar.
I also shoot my pop's 1911, from 1917, better than I do most other guns. I don't shoot it much, but I was all my shots in that 12" circle at about 40 yards with it. Maybe because I grew up shooting a softair replica of a S&W 1911, who knows.

I think this is good advice, carry what you shoot best and not what is best to conceal.
I'll take it to heart.

 

[No_Regerts]

Homestly, if I shoot modern subcompacts anything like I do the 1903 hammerless... the bad guy would have to be about 450lbs and no more than 10 feet away...
I can put all 15 shots in a 12" circle with a P226 at 30 yards, so for that fact alone I should probably carry that or similar.
I also shoot my pop's 1911, from 1917, better than I do most other guns. I don't shoot it much, but I was all my shots in that 12" circle at about 40 yards with it. Maybe because I grew up shooting a softair replica of a S&W 1911, who knows.

I think this is good advice, carry what you shoot best and not what is best to conceal.
I'll take it to heart.

Its hard because there is no "perfect" gun. The trend, which has worked, has been less expensive guns that get more people carrying. Some of them are quite good for some folks. Some, they are adequate. I shoot a 1911 well, but at the cost of capacity and added weight. I run an M&P better than anything because I carry one on duty, at the cost of raw accuracy.

I think thats where the Sig P-Series guns check a lot of boxes. More capacity than a 1911 and not quite as heavy (but much chunkier). I also have seen people do some great shooting at distance with an RDS equipped Glock. A Glock with good RDS is about what a Sig costs.

Choices!

 

[Flymph]

Sometimes the choices make my head spin!
It's true, I can't conceal the P226 on me worth a spit.
I guess it will come down to whichever I get first, the P229 or the P365.
For now the P226 will be my open carry in the woods.

 

[Kruel J]

I carry a G26 or a G43. They are what I can conceal on my frame.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Its hard because there is no "perfect" gun.

So very true...

Your comment here , has me comparing it when I go out after grouse...
If I take my shotgun...all of the grouse are far away , just out of a clean kill range and take off fast...
If I take a muzzleloading rifle or .22 they still flush fast...but also high in the air...
So I have plan my hunt and actions accordingly.

There is as you say no perfect gun...and many times you need to use the gun you have , in a less than ideal manner.


The most efficient or damn near "perfect" manner for me to answer your question in the OP would for me to use a rifle , or shotgun...I shoot both of those , especially the ones that I have in mind , very well....
But that answer is far from perfect in the real world sense...as I could just see the headlines now if I were to start carrying either one of those...

In any event...
Keep thinking , keep learning , keep training and stay safe...
Andy

 

[MrRob96]

I think a red dot would help get shots quicker but I'm not sure about the accuracy component of plucking off the BG at 25-50 yards in a mall.

I think the BG will almost always have the upper hand in these shooter situations, if they decide to take it. They get to choose the time and place of the engagement which allows them to bring almost anything they want. Concealment isn't a large factor either... Only need to conceal it through a parking lot maybe.

Up gun as much as you can. Take every advantage you can get. This is why I don't carry pocket guns that are only good at 7 yards for one target.

If I could conceal an SBR, I would.

 

[Jeedia]

First off I have the utmost respect for LEOs. They are almost always unfairly maligned and painted as the bad guy.

However just because some one is a LEO does not make them a good shooter. I would bet 80% of regular idpa shooters could ace a local police pistol test and I would bet uspsa would be higher.

I absolutely agree with a red dot on a carry gun!! It is somewhat a force multipler. Dots are more accurate than iron sights. You can now threat focus and be pin point accurate to 50-100 yds, fairly easily. Now alot if this has to do with how mechanically accurate you gun is at 50-100 yrds. My stock Glock 19 with an 3.25 rmr type 2 I can put 5 rounds into 1" all day long with my carry rounds at 25 yds. And drawing free style to an idpa or uspsa head (0-A zone) at 25 is a shot I would and could take.

Carry at least 1 spare mag!!!
As another side note. When people tell me they carry I regularly ask if they carry a spare mag. Most of them do not. This is a huge mistake. Most malfunctions are magazine related. It also doubles the amount of ammo you have on you. Mags are Soo easy to hide and generally don't weigh that much.

 

[Alexx1401]

Up gun as much as you can. Take every advantage you can get. This is why I don't carry pocket guns that are only good at 7 yards for one target.

If I could conceal an SBR, I would.

For those who will 100% of the time, carry some full size this is of course great. That from what I have seen in a long time of carrying this is VERY rare. I could count on one hand the number I have known who did this. The rest would always, fairly often when weather is like it is now, leave that better gun at home. The problem with that is of course if the one time you need a gun, and you left it at home for that "quick trip", well...........
I LOVE the GM 1911, have since a little kid. There are often times I am just not willing to carry mine though. It's why I have many smaller ones. The idea being if I ever again "need" a gun at least I have something. So for those who really will always carry a full size? Good on you but you are the exception. Few are willing to do this.

 

[KKG]

I started Carrying a Colt 1911A1 under my Fatigue Shirt when I was 18. As far as I'm concerned it's still my go to Carry Gun, 50 years later. The 9mm might expand but the .45 will NOT Shrink!!!

 

[No_Regerts]

I think a red dot would help get shots quicker but I'm not sure about the accuracy component of plucking off the BG at 25-50 yards

In my experience with the RDS, its exactly the opposite. They are a tad slower to shot #1 unless your draw is perfect, but they allow you to hit targets pretty far out there. Ive shot at 8 inch steel plates at 50 yards and its all but guaranteed you'll hit.

 

[MrRob96]

So for those who really will always carry a full size? Good on you but you are the exception. Few are willing to do this.

I was being hyperbolic about the SBR. I won't always carry a full-sized(1911), and not many people have the dedication to do that like you said. Though I don't feel like I need a 1911 to handle the scenario OP asked about. At a minimum, I carry a P229 and dress around it, even in the summer. Most of the time it is a 3rd gen smith in a caliber, and model number, starting with 10. I wouldn't carry a sub-compact with garbage sights and minute of barn accuracy.

Can I hit a man-sized target at 25yards regularly? Yes. With a little stress(timer)? Dunno, this thread is making me think I need to run drills like that.

When I said up gun, I meant over that of a pocket gun for 7 yard engagements like the OP mentioned.

 

[Koda]

Its the middle of a hot summer, I'm not changing my edc to carry a full size. My thought on this thread from the beginning was that its not unreasonable to expect a longer distance shot to defend the safe exit of you and yours, not seek out and engage an active shooter.

I don't think its unreasonable to put some time into practicing longer shots even with a compact pistol, 20 yds is doable. 50 might be pushing it but certainly doable if you carry a larger size pistol. Its kinda like working weak hand shooting into your range time, you should that too. I don't really want to or necessarily like it but even 1 or 2 mags a range session and I've seen some improvement. God help me if I ever had to use my weak hand before I ever tried it... Id still probably die how slow I am offhand but I can hit a target now. Same thing with adding distance, 1 or 2 mags a range session and soon you'll look forward to it. Try a drill called the 10rd Assault Course makes it more fun and starts out at 20yds as you move up on it, bad guys don't expect the fight to get closer to them. ... fun to do with an AR too.

 

[No_Regerts]

For those who will 100% of the time, carry some full size this is of course great. That from what I have seen in a long time of carrying this is VERY rare. I could count on one hand the number I have known who did this. The rest would always, fairly often when weather is like it is now, leave that better gun at home. The problem with that is of course if the one time you need a gun, and you left it at home for that "quick trip", well...........
I LOVE the GM 1911, have since a little kid. There are often times I am just not willing to carry mine though. It's why I have many smaller ones. The idea being if I ever again "need" a gun at least I have something. So for those who really will always carry a full size? Good on you but you are the exception. Few are willing to do this.

I carry this (Glock 17) with shorts and a polo shirt. Its the smallest gun I carry and I carry ALL of the time:

 

[Kruel J]

I carry this (Glock 17) with shorts and a polo shirt. Its the smallest gun I carry and I carry ALL of the time:

View attachment 606323

You are in the minority, brother.

 

[No_Regerts]

You are in the minority, brother.

Doesn't have to be.

 

[Kruel J]

Doesn't have to be.

Could you imagine me concealing a G17?

 

[No_Regerts]

Could you imagine me concealing a G17?

I think if you went to something like a polo shirt in a tall, you'd be ok.