National Can I put a folding adapter on an AR Pistol?

[GOG]

I'm not finding info anywhere. This is with no brace, just a standard AR pistol extension and sponge cover. Do any of you guys have a clue or could you point me to a legal source? Thank you.

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[arakboss]

I'm not finding info anywhere. This is with no brace, just a standard AR pistol extension and sponge cover. Do any of you guys have a clue or could you point me to a legal source? Thank you.

I would say yes and have thought about doing that for one of my pistols. It should be called a folding extension tube adapter since a stock is not necessary for it to function.

 

[sobo]

I'm not finding info anywhere. This is with no brace, just a standard AR pistol extension and sponge cover. Do any of you guys have a clue or could you point me to a legal source? Thank you.

Yes you can. However, mind the OAL. Some of those adapters add as much as 2" to the OAL. I believe the Law Tactical Gen 2 adapter adds 1-1/4 inches. Depending upon what you buy and how long your barrel is currently, an adapter could put your AR over the maximum allowable length (26 inches) to avoid being classified as an SBR. Of course, if it's already an SBR, then you've got no issues whatsoever other than your gun is registered with the AFT. But judging by your question, I'm assuming you're trying to avoid the paperwork and registration that is incumbent with an SBR.

Also, be aware of the new "rules" the AFT is contemplating. There is an item in the 4999 scorecard, Section III, Attachment Method, that penalizes one 2 points if one installs a folding adapter. Granted, these new "rules" have not passed yet (and may not, given the SCOTUS decision in West Virginia v EPA). But be aware that if you have other items that bring your score to 4 or more, then you would have an (illegal) SBR if those "rules" do get passed. There's tons-o-shiit in that stoopit scorecard that can blow the score way past 4. And given the current anti-2A jokeministration and the current dickhead at the head of the AFT, I wouldn't count on those "rules" not passing. Constitutional challenges would ensue, to be sure, but in the meantime, you're in a dangerous place...

 

[GOG]

I'm planning on using a Sylvan Arms folder. It's 1.3" in length, so I dunno. I forgot to mention it's a 10.5" barrel.

 

[CamoDeafie]

NFA says the following

SBR= any rifle with a barrel under 16" and has a shoulder stock

AOW= any weapon that is "concealable" (held to be under 26" OAL); and doesn't fit other categories; and depending on what ATF interprets.. but not made from a rifle or shotgun. Can also include combination guns whose barrels are under 16/18" lengths, or guns that are shaped/designed to look like other objects (cane guns, pocket holsters where the trigger is usable, etc).. a 2nd vertical grip on a handgun or pistol puts it into AOW territory.

GCA says

SBR= any rifle with a barrel under 16", and has a shoulder stock, or is under 26" OAL. (I've never seen such a gun that has 16" barrel, a stock and was under 26" OAL....)

 

[sobo]

I'm planning on using a Sylvan Arms folder. It's 1.3" in length, so I dunno. I forgot to mention it's a 10.5" barrel.

That barrel length is going to be problematic...

I just measured a certain someone's AR pistol that has a 7" barrel. That certain someone's pistol measured 22.0" OAL.
If one were to add 3.5" to that certain someone's barrel length to make it equal to your barrel length of 10.5", then that would make your firearm 25.5" OAL.
Add the adapter of 1.3" and you've busted the 26" OAL limit by 3/4" and the AFT will stack on your front porch and shoot your dog.
It would seem to me that for your barrel length, you would be ill-advised to proceed with adding a folding adapter.

 

[GOG]

Well, that's confusing. Probably purposefully so. Screw it. I'll go without, the extension is only six inches and with the length of the hinge there isn't enough difference to make it worth the hassle. I just want a short truck gun.

 

[sobo]

Well, that's confusing. Probably purposefully so. Screw it. I'll go without, the extension is only six inches and with the length of the hinge there isn't enough difference to make it worth the hassle. I just want a short truck gun.

That's why a certain someone went with 7-inch and 8-inch barrels on their AR pistols. There's still some wiggle room with the AFT with barrels that short, although the accuracy beyond about 50 yards is shiit...

 

[GOG]

It's my only AR pistol so the 10.5" barrel length was a conservative choice.

 

[CamoDeafie]

@sobo can you provide sources where a pistol has to stay under 26" OAL to be a pistol? (or a "firearm" according to the GCA 1968)

 

[sobo]

From: https://americanmadetactical.com/gun-tech/keeping-your-ar-15-pistol-legal/

"LOP and OAL AR 15 Pistol Requirements & Considerations
Two other factors that need to be kept in mind when building an AR-15 pistol are Length of Pull (LOP) and Overall Length (OAL).

For those of you who are not familiar with these AR pistol regulations, a rifle's length of pull is defined as the distance from the trigger to the end of the butt stock or, in the case of an AR-15 pistol, to the end of the brace as measured in a straight line.

So, while a rifle's length of pull is normally used to determine how well it will fit an individual shooter, an AR-15 pistol's length of pull is important because the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (aka ATF) has advised shooters that an AR-15 pistol with a length of pull greater than 13.5 inches may constitute a redesign of the brace into a stock.

In addition to the length of pull, the overall length of an AR-15 pistol is also of importance. Again according to the NFA, firearms with barrels shorter than 16 inches but overall lengths greater than 26 inches are classified as short barreled rifles rather than as pistols.

Therefore, because AR-15 pistols have barrels that are shorter than 16 inches, they must have an overall length of 26 inches or less or they are considered short barreled rifles rather than pistols and thus are subject to the $200 fee to obtain the necessary tax stamp."

So, I read the above as the firearm must stay under 26 inches OAL to not be classified as an SBR.

Looking for something that doesn't just come from some website on the innerwebz, but rather coming from Big Gov itself, I offer the snippet below, which is from the article on Proposed Rule ATF 2021R-08, from the Federal Register, at this address:
https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...for-firearms-with-attached-stabilizing-braces

clicky to embiggen


Yes, I am aware I said "Proposed Rule" above, but I think it would be ill-advised to buy/build an AR pistol outside of the proposed parameters of Rule 2021R-08 and the 4999 scorecard and then hope to God that the rule doesn't become law, even given the SCOTUS decision in West Virginia v EPA.

 

[Nutty4Guns]

According to the NFA, firearms with barrels shorter than 16 inches but overall lengths greater than 26 inches are classified as short barreled rifles rather than as pistols. So, the firearm has to stay under 26 inches OAL to not be classified as an SBR.

I thought that was only if the pistol has a brace on it.? No?

It's past my bedtime, so maybe I'm thinking of something else. Not sure.

 

[sobo]

I thought that was only if the pistol has a brace on it.? No?

It is my understanding that an AR pistol does not need to have a brace on it to be considered an AR pistol.
Both of these are AR pistols:

 

[sobo]

Yunno, I'm certainly not an expert on this, but someone who very likely has the necessary cred to speak to this issue is @wired.
He seems to have a helluva lotta SBRs and would likely be up to speed on the whole AR pistol OAL thing...

 

[wired]

Its hard to tell at this point. Right now all you need is under 13.5" LOP and under 26" OAL for a pistol and at this point thats about all the regs say. Its changing next month though and personally I wouldn't go out and spend money on a LAW folder if I was building a new gun until the rules are sorted out. From the preliminary points sheet they released back in June you will not be able to have a folder going forward. Now, if you are willing to go SBR there MAY BE a route to getting a free stamp out of this debacle although thats a big unknown right now.

Current regs:

Under 13.5" LOP brace OK
Folder OK
No brace ? OK
Under 26" ( tube extended ) its a pistol.
Over 26" Its a Firearm and you can have a vertical forward grip and a brace.

Future regs?

No one really knows yet but theres a lot of butt hurt going on .


LOP defined as trigger pad to rear of fully extended stock/brace.

 

[wired]

From: https://americanmadetactical.com/gun-tech/keeping-your-ar-15-pistol-legal/

"LOP and OAL AR 15 Pistol Requirements & Considerations
Two other factors that need to be kept in mind when building an AR-15 pistol are Length of Pull (LOP) and Overall Length (OAL).

For those of you who are not familiar with these AR pistol regulations, a rifle's length of pull is defined as the distance from the trigger to the end of the butt stock or, in the case of an AR-15 pistol, to the end of the brace as measured in a straight line.

So, while a rifle's length of pull is normally used to determine how well it will fit an individual shooter, an AR-15 pistol's length of pull is important because the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (aka ATF) has advised shooters that an AR-15 pistol with a length of pull greater than 13.5 inches may constitute a redesign of the brace into a stock.

In addition to the length of pull, the overall length of an AR-15 pistol is also of importance. Again according to the NFA, firearms with barrels shorter than 16 inches but overall lengths greater than 26 inches are classified as short barreled rifles rather than as pistols.

Therefore, because AR-15 pistols have barrels that are shorter than 16 inches, they must have an overall length of 26 inches or less or they are considered short barreled rifles rather than pistols and thus are subject to the $200 fee to obtain the necessary tax stamp."

So, I read the above as the firearm must stay under 26 inches OAL to not be classified as an SBR.

Looking for something that doesn't just come from some website on the innerwebz, but rather coming from Big Gov itself, I offer the snippet below, which is from the article on Proposed Rule ATF 2021R-08, from the Federal Register, at this address:
https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...for-firearms-with-attached-stabilizing-braces

clicky to embiggen
View attachment 1305870

Yes, I am aware I said "Proposed Rule" above, but I think it would be ill-advised to buy/build an AR pistol outside of the proposed parameters of Rule 2021R-08 and the 4999 scorecard and then hope to God that the rule doesn't become law, even given the SCOTUS decision in West Virginia v EPA.

Not quite right. SBR's are rifles and by definition rifles have buttstocks. Under the current rules Braces are not buttstocks so over 26" a braced weapon is not a pistol or an SBR . Its just something that falls into the catch all category of "firearm". If you were to take the brace off and put a stock on one then it would be an SBR. IF the ATF rules braces to be stocks and they use their proposed points system it is likely (!) that they would be ruled SBR's.

 

[arakboss]

@GOG said in OP that his pistol was going to be used with extension tube only. Length of pull, barrel length, overall length, etc are irrelavant for a pistol without a brace. Let's not confuse him with all this other stuff that would apply only to pistols with a brace.

 

[wired]

@GOG said in OP that his pistol was going to be used with extension tube only. Length of pull, barrel length, overall length, etc are irrelavant for a pistol without a brace. Let's not confuse him with all this other stuff that would apply only to pistols with a brace.

Yep. Just a tube? No problem.

 

[Nwcid]

I have your other posts about this issue.

If you are worried about length and stocks, have you considered going to a system that dose not require a rear buffer tube at all? There are a few makers out there.

 

[sobo]

Yep. Just a tube? No problem.

So, if a certain someone were to remove the KAK blades from that certain someone's AR pistols, then that certain someone can do just about anything s/he wants to those AR pistols (VFG, folding adapter, optics, etc.) and they still would not be classified as an SBR or any NFA item? Why wouldn't people remove the braces/KAK blades and load up their pistols with VFGs, folders, and all manner of cool shiit and just go off whistling merrily into the sunset (while flipping a bigass finger to the AFT)?

In summary, I conclude from what you said that the 4999 scorecard is irrelevant (assuming it is adopted, which appears likely in this jokeministration) if the pistol is not braced?