AZ immigration law: I guess I'm a conspiracy theory nutjob.

[SonicBlue03]

Which part of the fight are you referring to? There is the fight to stop the illegals at the border, there is the political fight to MAKE the feds do their jobs, and there is the fight to get rid of the criminals who are already here.

People have already been dying on our side. It is time to get rid of them.

The fight to rid the illegals. There seems to be an increasing sentiment that "some things are worth dying for." Political fighting doesn't necessarily lend itself to the loss of life. So I can only assume you mean openly defending the state border.

I believe we're asking the federal government to enforce the laws on the books.

What a silly concept. I must be out of my mind to ask for that.

Exactly. Our founders and someone at Concord Bridge knew that some things are worth dying for, such as your country.

Ah. So you were just being dramatic with the latter quote? I assumed you were galvanizing the troops for a Minuteman border effort.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Ad Hominem Hypocrisy alert!

Learned a new word, have we?

 

[Blitzkrieg]

So how many of you are going to relocate and take up arms to support the fight?

I would be willing to go there for several months and help out in the roundup. I am underemployed now anyway, largely due to the invasion

 

[2zuks]

The fight to rid the illegals. There seems to be an increasing sentiment that "some things are worth dying for." Political fighting doesn't necessarily lend itself to the loss of life. So I can only assume you mean openly defending the state border.

Oh, but political fighting can very well lend itself to the loss of life. Unfortunately, we may very well see it ourselves if things keep going as they are.

Yes sir, some things are very much worth dying for. If the future of your children and grandchildren isn't one of those things, then we have very different priorities.

If we could have a legitimate force put together that would be allowed to locate, detain, and deport illegals from our states, I would VOLUNTEER to do it. Does defending our state border mean we keep the Californians out of Oregon? LOL. Seriously though, I would not be opposed to helping to secure the border at all. Before we can secure the border successfully though, we need the US policy to support it. That is the point of the political front.

Our country is on a serious decline. We no longer are in the position where we can overlook the illegal problem.

 

[SonicBlue03]

I would be willing to go there for several months and help out in the roundup. I am underemployed now anyway, largely due to the invasion

The invasion of Iraq or immigrants entering the states? If the latter, what industry were you in and what are you re-training for?

Yes sir, some things are very much worth dying for. If the future of your children and grandchildren isn't one of those things, then we have very different priorities.

If we could have a legitimate force put together that would be allowed to locate, detain, and deport illegals from our states, I would VOLUNTEER to do it. Does defending our state border mean we keep the Californians out of Oregon? LOL. Seriously though, I would no be opposed at all to helping to secure the border at all.

Our country is on a serious decline. We no longer are in the position where we can overlook the illegal problem.

Can you please elaborate on how the future of my children/potential grandchildren are at risk? Is it because there might be more brown people than white people here? Or because low-skill, low-paying jobs might not be available to them? Serious question - I'd like to know what puts them at risk specifically.

If an influx of illegals leads to a changing of culture within the political and geographic borders of the U.S., why do we see it as different than what settlers did to the Indians centuries ago? Are we reaping what we sow?

 

[Gunner3456]

The fight to rid the illegals. There seems to be an increasing sentiment that "some things are worth dying for." Political fighting doesn't necessarily lend itself to the loss of life. So I can only assume you mean openly defending the state border.

Originally Posted by Gunner3456
Exactly. Our founders and someone at Concord Bridge knew that some things are worth dying for, such as your country.

Ah. So you were just being dramatic with the latter quote? I assumed you were galvanizing the troops for a Minuteman border effort.

No, I was referring to someone's comment that a lot of people would die if we enforced our border and immigration laws. I believe that preserving our borders and stopping illegals from flooding us with crime is worth dying for.

If I were called to help I would in a heartbeat, but of course that's not going to happen under our system because we don't take the law into our own hands.

How many men have died for our country so far? Was the shot fired at Concord Bridge and the aftermath worth it? I say it was. Those brave men were shedding blood and kicking the British out to establish and preserve our ideals.

 

[Gunner3456]

Average, middle class Americans are not reproducing themselves. We don't have a birth rate of 2 for 2. Our traditional population is shrinking but we have 30 or 40 million Mexican immigrants to make up for it and to begin to overwhelm the system. About 1/2 of those are illegals.

Off topic, Muslims are also having children at accelerated rates, further diluting the traditional population. They will bring us violence which we will have to defend against.

The illegals are causing our crime rate to soar. Our Southern states are in real jeopardy both from crime and from supporting the problem. Kalifornicate has ten million illegals - 1/2 of all of them in the US - and it is breaking them. They are bankrupt. Part of it is crime, part of it is food stamps, welfare, housing, etc., part of it is people working under the table and not paying taxes, part of it is people driving without licenses or insurance and driving the cost up for others, part of it is the massive court and lawyer expenses, part of it is putting the illegal kids in school and hiring Spanish speaking people to teach them... The list goes on.

Parts of Arizona are war zones right in the cities and now even in rural areas. Drug crime, human trafficking, kidnappings - this isn't Mexico, this is happening in the US.

Doesn't anyone look to the future and really care what happens to us?

 

[SonicBlue03]

How do Muslims reproducing at high rates factor into the border/illegal immigration problem? How is this different than larger reproduction rates of Catholics and Mormons?

That's a very interesting statement that I'd like to understand your thought process behind.

 

[bugeye]

Learned a new word, have we?

Yes, I was lectured about it by the hypocrite in question.
Honest, this wasn't about picking on Trisum, it was more like saying fellow hypocrites can I get an amen!

 

[Gunner3456]

How do Muslims reproducing at high rates factor into the border/illegal immigration problem? How is this different than larger reproduction rates of Catholics and Mormons?

That's a very interesting statement that I'd like to understand your thought process behind.

Good question and complex. We have so many "native" Catholics, and almost all Mexicans are Catholic that we could get over represented by Catholics as they don't believe in birth control.

Look at liberal California. Even so they weren't able to get a legal marriage for gays because Catholics beat it at the ballot box. Many of those were Mexican. You'll find the same issue for abortion. I'm not advocating either, just pointing out that the Catholic voting block including Mexicans can control elections. Next election it will probably be something else. We will have their religion forced on us as their numbers rapidly increase.

Add Mormons to that list and you really have some power.

Muslims raise their kids to their own beliefs too, so there's that culture to add to the mix. Add to that the clear fact that some of them will be terrorists with their numbers increasing, and I consider that a problem. They will also vote against gay marriage and abortion.

Now, I'm against gay marriage and abortion, so I'm just giving an example of how it is, and not speaking for or against the issues.

Most of us espouse a belief in keeping religious beliefs out of our government and laws (no establishment of religion) but if you get enough Catholics, Muslims and Mormons voting on these issues, you will effectively be following their religious beliefs, like it or not.

I have to repeat that Muslims are dangerous and multiplying. Their kids are indoctrinated.

Pretty soon our current majority beliefs will be overwhelmed by these people's religious beliefs.

I'm Christian and our numbers and birth rates are shrinking.

If you follow all of this to it's logical conclusion, democratic voting could put all of us under the rule of primarily the Catholics, with enough Muslims to cause us real danger.

 

[SonicBlue03]

Good question and complex. We have so many "native" Catholics, and almost all Mexicans are Catholic that we could get over represented by Catholics as they don't believe in birth control.

Look at liberal California. Even so they weren't able to get a legal marriage for gays because Catholics beat it at the ballot box. Many of those were Mexican. You'll find the same issue for abortion. I'm not advocating either, just pointing out that the Catholic voting block including Mexicans can control elections. Next election it will probably be something else. We will have their religion forced on us as their numbers rapidly increase.

Add Mormons to that list and you really have some power.

Muslims raise their kids to their own beliefs too, so there's that culture to add to the mix. Add to that the clear fact that some of them will be terrorists with their numbers increasing, and I consider that a problem. They will also vote against gay marriage and abortion.

Now, I'm against gay marriage and abortion, so I'm just giving an example of how it is, and not speaking for or against the issues.

Most of us espouse a belief in keeping religious beliefs out of our government and laws (no establishment of religion) but if you get enough Catholics, Muslims and Mormons voting on these issues, you will effectively be following their religious beliefs, like it or not.

I have to repeat that Muslims are dangerous and multiplying. Their kids are indoctrinated.

Pretty soon our current majority beliefs will be overwhelmed by these people's religious beliefs.

I'm Christian and our numbers and birth rates are shrinking.

If you follow all of this to it's logical conclusion, democratic voting could put all of us under the rule of primarily the Catholics, with enough Muslims to cause us real danger.

Proposition 8 was interesting in that both blacks and hispanics voted to support a bill which effectively neutered a vocal minority group within California. It's always been interesting to me that the largest opponent to minority groups are...other minority groups. The groups who seek tolerance tend to be the most intolerant (generalization, but seems to bear itself out.)

Separation of Church and State is an interesting concept. Constitutionally, I get the implication. An open question for yourself or others - how far back would you point in order to identify a government or set of principles that haven't been based or driven on religious affiliation or belief? Or would you say that no U.S. government to this point has made national decisions based on religious principles?

What part of Muslim religion do you see as the biggest threat? Muslims generally or those who are literalists and focus on the latter half of the Qur'an? And do you think most Muslims are literalists, or that many embrace the parts of the religion that fit them (similar to Catholics, Protestants, and Mormons?)

As a side note, it's interesting to compare the tone of the Bible next to the Qur'an. The Bible goes from violent and oppressive to peaceful and forgiving, whereas the Qur'an goes from peaceful and forgiving to violent and oppressive. Maybe it has to do with the whole "read right to left" thing....

 

[bugeye]

Coming on like we have been suddenly overrun by illegals, after we have let them in one by one for the interests of business over 40 years, is just plain nuts.

Defending application of laws that we have not enforced for 4 decades as an act of patriotism in defense of American Ideals, misses the point, the central tenant of American Ideals is fairness, and this action is simply unfair.

What your suggesting is deporting 7.5% of the population, plus either breaking up families or deporting 10 million children who have been educated here and are 100% American. Why, because you feel insecure, all of a sudden you don't want to share, and you don't like them?

We need to make these people citizens and pass and enforce strict laws to cut off the flow from this point on. This is the best we can do, without spitting on our ideals.

I know a lot of us want to think we're ready to join Yosemite Sam's reactionary Posse and go on the big round up, but we are Americans and the tears of mothers and children would be enough to send us home rethinking our priorities.

 

[Trlsmn]

Yes, I was lectured about it by the hypocrite in question.
Honest, this wasn't about picking on Trisum, it was more like saying fellow hypocrites can I get an amen!

Amen! I am the last guy that will claim perfection!

 

[claypigeon]

My whole take on the situation is that if you want to prevent children from falling down a well you do not make children illegal. You close up the well.

If we want to stop illegal immigration we have to stop providing them jobs and stop providing them social services. No more "born here you're a citizen" crap, no schooling or state sponsored medical care for illegals, no food stamps, etc.

Then we need to really go after big businesses that utilize the illegal labor. I am okay with work visas, but that is a different story.

I couldn't agree with you more. As a business owner I am required to ask prospective employees to show one or two forms of ID and fill out a Form I-9, Employment Eligibility Verification. But then I just put it in a file and hold onto it in case I am asked to produce it. It would seem that this is just another law put in place by the politicians to make it seem as though they are trying to fix the problem. Unless the form is being sent in for verification and action is taken to remove the offenders, it is useless. This makes it pretty easy for both the employee and employer to put down whatever information they want.

 

[2506]

Naw, bugeye is too pointy headed to have crummy guns. He is the type
that weighs his brass and owns a Concentricity Gauge.

Hey, I resemble that remark. Although now I buy only Nosler brass, which comes pre-weighed and conditioned...

 

[Father of four]

Man I love that! I wonder if I can get that made into a bumper sticker.

 

[Jamie6.5]

Ah yes the musing's of the Northwest's liberal elite. They get their news from HuffPo and MSNBC and Salon and mainstream media news sources.
What most that object to this law need, is a dose of reality.
Now I know this is a blog, but it is a blog by southern Arizonans and may shed some light on why 70% of Arizonans approve of the intent of the law, as at least some effort to get the border, and those areas just north of it, UNDER CONTROL!

http://murderousmusings.blogspot.com/

Arizona is being overrun by illegal smuggling. It's everywhere, and the effects of it are being felt throughout Arizona. No doubt you've heard of the murder of prominent rancher Robert Krenze. Krenze had found tons of marijuana on his vast, thirty-five thousand acre ranch and turned it over to the Border Patrol. He'd suffered the destruction of his fences, his cattle and damage to his grounds, not to mention a vast amount of littering. Then last week, a deputy sheriff in Pinal County, just north of Tucson at Case Grande, was on regular patrol when he discovered bales of marijuana and five smugglers. They shot him with an AK-47. The deputy will survive, but the next day, a sweep of the area discovered seventeen more smugglers, all of whom were arrested, three of whom fit the descriptions of those who'd shot the sheriff.

Then this:

Both humans and drugs are being smuggled through Arizona. Phoenix has the highest kidnapping rate in the world. Drop houses are common, and the violence associated with these activities is becoming an everyday occurrence. I-19, which runs from Nogales to Tucson, is commonly known as Smuggler's Alley, but these activities extend far beyond interstate 19. Interstates 10 and 8 are also frequent passages for the smuggled goods and people. Arizona has become part of the ongoing Mexican drug lord battleground. <snip>

It's commonplace for a van or bus loaded with illegals to wreck on one of these highways -- usually I-10 -- tossing dead bodies across the roads, medians and berms. One such accident killed twenty-four illegals, another last week killed twelve.<snip>

Home invasions, destroyed fences and robbers lying in wait for smugglers are on the increase. Homeowners who live along these smuggling routes are finding spent and unfired AK-47 rounds in their backyards, near their kids' swingsets. The border inspection stations send many smugglers through housing districts, moving much of the smuggling activity from the highways to the housing districts around them.<snip>

Then there is the fact that the Sec. of Homeland Security used to Arizona's Governor. I read elsewhere that during her tenure as Gov, she contacted Bush's admin 20 or more times in an effort to get the fed to do something about the border crossings/smuggling.

Ironically, Janet Napolitano, Secretary of Homeland Security, demanded the National Guard patrol our borders when she was governor of Arizona. She got no response. But now that Janet's the Homeland Security Secretary, she's changed her mind and refused to bring in the Guard.

No doubt, politics are involved.<snip>
None of this makes any sense unless one looks at it from the political side<snip>.

So maybe, just maybe, those of you that object from your semi-safe little Northwest paradise can look at things from the perspective of the people that live where this law was passed, and at least try to be honest in your assessment of the situation from the local's perspective.
And when/if the home invasions, rapes and robberies, identity thefts, nightly machinegun fire and truckloads of dead bodies on the highway affect you, your perspective will change, and you will want something done just as bad as Arizonans do.

 

[Trlsmn]

Look at all these racists!

<broken link removed>

 

[1us]

I am a Vietnam combat Veteran and understand the problems associated with identification of insurgents. Let there be no mistake, this unauthorized and illegal immigration is the largest assault on the US in its history. I have witnessed speakers at the Mexican rallies openly declaring they will win back all of the SW United states through populating and voting out the whites. Sound racist to you?
While numbers are thrown around, I believe the 30 million figure is accurate, with 900,000 plus in Arizona along with a cost of an estimated $345 billion dollars to US Citizens annually.
While illegal immigration occurs from many Countries, the Mexican illegals have overwhelmingly invaded the United States.
A few facts to consider:
1. Legal immigrants are required to carry their immigration papers at all times (per existing Federal Immigration law).
2. Americans have and will continue to support legal immigration.
3. Racism claims have been well established as a mechanism against failure of the insurgent group or position. In Obama’s book he cites that when a position is in failure shout racism to defuse the issues. Maybe one of you can look it up and print it verbatim, or utube as I don't have time now.
4. The question remains-what action is required?
A. Secure the Border
B. Arrest ever Government Official that has aided or abetted these illegals and their insurgency that has undermined this country. This is terrorism! US Citizens are killed daily by acts of illegals through violent crimes, automobile homicide and the drugs they supply!
C. Say to **** with political correctness and check ID on suspected illegals without intimidation. I can't tell you how many times my ID has been checked in my lifetime-without any objection on my part! Do you think for one moment that all folks in the US may be profiled by Homeland Security and most other agencies of the Gov't at will. Remember recently Homeland created a list of potential terroist threats to the US such as Veterans.
D. Do you understand that various agencies of the Gov't can enter you vehicle, your home,you property without a warrant- just reasonable suspicion of one of the many accusations or purported thoughts of crime. Violations of search and seizure? Absolutely! Carried out anyhow. Further, under various laws your property can be seized and never returned, even if found not guilty or never charged with a crime.
Oregonians theoretically voted that provision in a year or two ago as part of an Oregon referendum (written by our legislature).
E. To get the whole illegal thing off, Obama needs to set down in a courtroom and defend his US Citizenship and if fails the test stand as an invader of the US. Fourteen plus suits have been filed in that regard and several for Treason against Obama and so far no court has found it important enough to actually review the facts. These cases have been brought by Military Officers, Chicago Democratic Attorney General (past), specifically Berg vs. Obama and the Democratic Party. The US Supreme Court would not hear it! Up date yourself on the facts-start with Wikkipedia Obama citizenship, and scroll through to review many of the legal actions filed, dates and refusal of the Courts to hear the matter.
F. Note; the 14th amendment and Supreme Court precedence, does not grant citizenship to children of illegal aliens unless parented by a US Citizen!
G. Off subject, but need to vent regarding the gravest attack on US soil in the history of the US and absolute failure of the Citizens of this Country to defend their brothers. The two attacks- Ruby Ridge and Waco Texas- the murder of 80+ men, women and children. The credit for these murders lie directly on the then President Clinton, a true coward, and carried out via Janet Reno and various military, quasi military and police, atf etc. If you have never reviewed the numerous documentaries of this mass murder-educate yourself!Review the video and see how the lies were told to cover up the acts.From this lesson the US Government has determined that the American people are too cowardly to stand up for their fellow Citizens! As this Country continues to fail you will see more of the same, but I will pray that law enforcement, military and citizens will stand together and defeat the killing of US Citizens.

If we do not stand together we stand alone!

LOSE THE RACISM CLAIMS AS THEY ARE FOUNDED IN IGNORANCE AND ARE A POOR EXCUSE FOR THE FACTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Would like to keep going but work calls!

 

[Gunner3456]

Coming on like we have been suddenly overrun by illegals, after we have let them in one by one for the interests of business over 40 years, is just plain nuts.

We didn't have the gangs and drug smugglers at this rate for 40 years. Half of California's prison inmates haven't been illegals for 40 years. Phoenix hasn't been the kidnapping capital of the world for 40 years. Sometimes you reach a breaking point and wise up.

Defending application of laws that we have not enforced for 4 decades as an act of patriotism in defense of American Ideals, misses the point, the central tenant of American Ideals is fairness, and this action is simply unfair.

Ah. Fairness. That slippery undefinable term, judged by what you want. It's designed to lay guilt onto sheeple.

What your suggesting is deporting 7.5&#37; of the population, plus either breaking up families or deporting 10 million children who have been educated here and are 100% American. Why, because you feel insecure, all of a sudden you don't want to share, and you don't like them?

I didn't say I didn't like them. Country first. Someone had better feel insecure if our country keeps sinking the way it is.

We need to make these people citizens and pass and enforce strict laws to cut off the flow from this point on. This is the best we can do, without spitting on our ideals.

Oh, I commit a crime such as rob a bank. It isn't fair to lock me up for 20 years so you just make me an employee of the bank. I want you on my side if I ever become a criminal. Being an illegal is a crime. I don't want criminals made into citizens.

I know a lot of us want to think we're ready to join Yosemite Sam's reactionary Posse and go on the big round up, but we are Americans and the tears of mothers and children would be enough to send us home rethinking our priorities.

Not me. They came here illegally not caring about us, and they can go home now. Bad things happen to people who get caught committing crimes and I don't cry about it. Bad things happen to children of people who commit crimes and that's just the way it's always been.