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AZ immigration law: I guess I'm a conspiracy theory nutjob.

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by PlayboyPenguin, Apr 29, 2010.

  1. PlayboyPenguin

    PlayboyPenguin Pacific Northwest Well-Known Member 2016 Volunteer

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    I guess I am no better than some conspiracy theorists on this forum because I can't help but think the people of AZ are being duped by their political leaders. I think the AZ politicians wanted to appear tough on immigration to get re-elected but did not want to actually anger large businesses.

    I think they added the part about asking individual people for papers just because they knew that would get the law overturned in court before it goes into effect. They could have made a very strong bill that targeted the hiring process and the companies that hired them or been more specific in their conditions for requesting documentation, but instead they chose to add this vague part about harassing people on the streets for documents. All that part does is placate the right and fire up the opposition. It does not seem like it will actually make much of a dent in any illegal populations. It will just be a catalyst for the law failing. Like I said, it is like they created the law to sound good but never actually take effect.
     
  2. fletcher

    fletcher Washington Co. Member

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    I think the AZ bill is largely a symbolic gesture of telling the Feds that border states want more border security. The problems to the entire immigration system, legal and illegal alike, are so myopic that no single law, enforcement mechanism, or political pony show will solve it.

    The U.S. has two options: Open the border completely, or secure the border completely. Before any debate happens or any policy is to be crafted regarding who comes in or not, this choice must be made. Otherwise, any talk is just hot air, which leads to melting the polar ice caps and killing polar bears.
     
  3. Trlsmn

    Trlsmn In Utero (Portland) Well-Known Member

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    Politician grandstanding to get elected is par for the course so you are correct. What happens next really will be something to watch. I can see both sides of the issue and there are no clear answers. On one side there is a problem that is out of control and truly is wrecking havoc in the US. On the other side we have the Constitution and the right to go about our lives unchecked by the police. The truth is when we give the police rights above the Constitution they do tend to use them for the wrong reasons, just look to the patriot act for confirmation of that. I really don't see an easy solution at this point.
     
  4. PlayboyPenguin

    PlayboyPenguin Pacific Northwest Well-Known Member 2016 Volunteer

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    My whole take on the situation is that if you want to prevent children from falling down a well you do not make children illegal. You close up the well.

    If we want to stop illegal immigration we have to stop providing them jobs and stop providing them social services. No more "born here you're a citizen" crap, no schooling or state sponsored medical care for illegals, no food stamps, etc.

    Then we need to really go after big businesses that utilize the illegal labor. I am okay with work visas, but that is a different story.
     
  5. Trlsmn

    Trlsmn In Utero (Portland) Well-Known Member

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    I couldn't agree more with all those points! With work Visa's I would want to be sure that the recipient could prove legal entry into the country and that illegal's once caught and identified could then never be eligible for a work visa.
     
  6. Chee-to

    Chee-to Oregon Well-Known Member

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    We could just write the president.........:cool:

    Dear President Obama:

    I'm planning to move my family and extended family to Mexico
    for my health, and I would like to ask you to assist me.

    We're planning to simply walk across the border from the U.S. into Mexico ,
    and we'll need your help to make a few arrangements.

    We plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports, immigration
    quotas and laws.

    I'm sure they handle those things the same way you do here. So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Calderon, that I'm on my way over?

    Please let him know that I will be expecting the following:

    1. Free medical care for my entire family.

    2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might need, whether I use them or not.

    3. Please print all Mexican government forms in English.

    4. I want my grandkids to be taught Spanish by English-speaking (bi-lingual) teachers.

    5. Tell their schools they need to include classes on American culture and history.

    6. I want my grandkids to see the American flag on one of the flag poles at their school.

    7. Please plan to feed my grandkids at school for both breakfast and lunch.

    8. I will need a local Mexican driver's license so I can get easy access to government services.

    9. I do plan to get a car and drive in Mexico , but, I don't plan to purchase car insurance, and I probably won't make any special effort to learn local traffic laws.

    10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the memo from their president to leave me alone, please be sure that every patrol car has at least one English-speaking officer.

    11. I plan to fly the U.S. Flag from my house top, put U S. Flag decals on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I do not want any complaints or negative comments from the locals.

    12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, or have any labor or tax laws enforced on any business I may start.

    13. Please have the president tell all the Mexican people to be extremely nice and never say critical things about me or my family, or about the strain we might place on their economy.

    14. I want to receive free food stamps.

    15. Naturally, I'll expect free rent subsidies.

    16. I'll need Income tax credits so although I don't pay Mexican Taxes, I'll receive money from the government.

    17. Please arrange it so that the Mexican Gov't pays $4,500 to help me buy a new car.

    18. Oh yes, I almost forgot, please enroll me free into the Mexican Social Security program so that I'll get a monthly income in retirement.

    I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things for all his people who walk over to the U.S. From Mexico . I am sure that President Calderon won't mind returning the favor if you ask him nicely.

    Thank you so much for your kind help.

    You're Da man!!!
     
  7. gnarkill

    gnarkill Richland, WA Member

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    I couldnt agree more with this statement.

    When I was working down on the border we were 45 miles from the nearest school and town. The town that was 45 miles away was sending a school bus all the way down to the port of entry and picking up mexican kids and busing them up to the school. The reason they were allowed to do this is because they were "renting" a "home" on the border literally 10 feet inside the US. These "homes" were not even useable living quarters, they were old mobile homes with the roofs caving in that no one had lived in for years. I guess because the "homes" had a valid US address, the children of that residence had a right to go to American schools. The guy who was doing this was running all kinds of racquet's down there since he owned every piece of available land around that port of entry. I couldnt believe this but I guess it worked because I saw the buses show up every day and the watched the kids walk over the border from Mexico and get on.

    We would also find flyers that would float over encouraging pregnant mexican women to make their way to america and have the child there in order to gain citizenship. Working down there in both Arizona and San Diego was a very eye opening experience. I dont blame these people for wanting to come up here and try and make a better life for themselves, I just dont appreciate the ones who completely exploit the system we law abiding, tax paying citizens worked so hard to create. Something needs to be done, and it needs to start with removing politicians who are willing to allow this exploitation to happen just so they can stay in office.
     
  8. elsullo

    elsullo Portland Oregon New Member

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    All of my life I have felt, acted, and appeared a bit alien in my own land. In contrast to my generation, I studied hard and received an excellent education. I gained a different perspective on things. For example, who else has heard of the "Geneva Accords on Vietnam" from 1954? Also, I stopped watching television in 1964 for most of fifteen years. This rare education led to my "alienation."

    Regarding the precedent of this new Arizona law, I feel expelling ALL illegal aliens is urgent business---including their young children even if born in the USA. But this law is WAY clumsy as an effort to do that.

    You see, almost any cop can see that I "look alien." Since I never carry my birth certificate, I could easily be mistaken FOR A CANADIAN and be arrested and get my car towed and impounded while I wait in jail for hired help to find my "papers." My pale skin, Northcountry dialect, and ease with ice-fishing give me away for national profiling, so it is likely that many more border staters will be swept up with all of the illegal Canadians and deported! Bellingham would be depopulated---all of those liberals, it's effectively Canadian anyway.

    No, there has GOT to be a better way to apprehend illegals than simple profiling or sobriety roadblocks. How about having to show an un-forgeable birth certificate whenever applying for any government benefit or tax refund? OR CHECKING THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF ANYONE ARRESTED FOR ANYTHING?.......................elsullo :cool:
     
  9. nixuser

    nixuser nw Member

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    politictions or ever how you spell it if thier lip,s are moving they are lying
     
  10. bugeye

    bugeye Oregon Well-Known Member

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    About the children of illegals;

    The 14th Amendment defines citizenship this way: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside." But even this does not get specific enough. As usual, the Constitution provides the framework for the law, but it is the law that fills in the gaps. The Constitution authorizes the Congress to do create clarifying legislation in Section 5 of the 14th Amendment; the Constitution, in Article 1, Section 8, Clause 4, also allows the Congress to create law regarding naturalization, which includes citizenship.

    Currently, Title 8 of the U.S. Code fills in the gaps left by the Constitution. Section 1401 defines the following as people who are "citizens of the United States at birth:"

    •Anyone born inside the United States *
    ...
    * There is an exception in the law — the person must be "subject to the jurisdiction" of the United States. This would exempt the child of a diplomat, for example, from this provision.
    "

    So they are citizens, deporting citizens, I don't think so?
     
  11. Trlsmn

    Trlsmn In Utero (Portland) Well-Known Member

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    Well I think we all know that already, the illegals using that as a free ride certainly do. So what should we do? Well I'll tell you! If they want to screw the US by the letter of the law we should use the letter of the law and send the parents packing with the choice to leave the kids here in foster care or they can take them home should they chose!
     
  12. Spray-n-pray

    Spray-n-pray Battle Ground Moderator Staff Member Bronze Supporter

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    This.

    The 14th amendment is one that of those that we call the "civil war amendments." Originally, it was designed to grant citizenship to those born here that were previously not considered citizens, i.e. slaves. I don't think the congress could have ever envisioned the current application (read: abuse) of this amendment to have anchor babies in the U.S.
     
  13. ZachS

    ZachS Eugene/PDX Active Member

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    Doesn't matter what they envisioned, especially when the language is that clear. We'd need a new constitutional amendment to end birthright citizenship.
     
  14. 2zuks

    2zuks Dallas, Oregon Member

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    Either that or we just stop the flow over the border so that they cannot bring the anchor babies here.
     
  15. Blitzkrieg

    Blitzkrieg WA Well-Known Member

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    It's a badly misunderstood amendment. The child must be born to parents legally within the USA or they are here as alien invaders and their children are not citizens
     
  16. Spray-n-pray

    Spray-n-pray Battle Ground Moderator Staff Member Bronze Supporter

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    Exactly. Congress would never do that, since to do so means they would lose virtually every Latino vote. It doesn't matter which party holds the majority at the time if were to be passed, that party would lose millions of votes. If there's one thing that politicians care about, it's staying as politicians.
     
  17. 2zuks

    2zuks Dallas, Oregon Member

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    That is why they are trying to push amnesty through again and are doing a test vote today to get Puerto Rico put in as a state.
     
  18. wheretheheckami

    wheretheheckami Vernonia, OR Member

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    "No, there has GOT to be a better way to apprehend illegals than simple profiling or sobriety roadblocks. How about having to show an un-forgeable birth certificate whenever applying for any government benefit or tax refund? OR CHECKING THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF ANYONE ARRESTED FOR ANYTHING?.......................elsullo"

    That's exactly what the law does. Police don't just pick people out of thin air.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/29/opinion/29kobach.html

    People got to quit listening to the loons of the left. There is nothing onerous about this law once you look past the liberal hysterics.

    Are you being profiled because they won't let you on an airline without ID? Or cash a check, without ID? You can't even (legally) get a job without ID.
     
  19. ZachS

    ZachS Eugene/PDX Active Member

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    It would take 2/3 of each house of Congress and 38/50 state legislatures, which would be impossible on any issue as divisive as this one - regardless of interest-group votes.
     
  20. Riot

    Riot Benton County, Washington Well-Known Member

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    I think you nailed it on the head with this one, PB. I also think that a lot of legislators stating that their states would involk the 14th Amendment are doing it out of re-election show as well. Unless you start seeing some Texas currency, this is all just a "Dog and Pony Show" for the voters.
     
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