Other State ATF now going after Pistol Braces...

[Boboclown]

No, In BATF speak you are a manufacturer if you have an 07 FFL manufacturers license and pay excise tax on a completed firearm. Otherwise as an end user you are a maker. You are never a manufacturer unless you get that 07 license.

That doesn't disprove what I said. The point is one can manufacture a firearm and call it that, but they still aren't a manufacturer. They don't hold a license and do it as a business, so even though they manufactured something they are not a manufacturer.

Hence why its illegal to manufacture firearms for the purpose to sell without a license, because you manufactured them to sell without the license. However if you occasionally do it for personal use and happen to sell some, its not illegal. You still manufactured either way, you're just not a manufacturer.

 

[wired]

That doesn't disprove what I said. The point is one can manufacture a firearm and call it that, but they still aren't a manufacturer. They don't hold a license and do it as a business, so even though they manufactured something they are not a manufacturer.

Hence why its illegal to manufacture firearms for the purpose to sell, because you manufactured them to sell without the license. However if you occasionally do it for personal use and happen to sell some, its not illegal. You still manufactured either way, you're just not a manufacturer.

Again ..."manufacture" is a legal term. MANUFACTURER is a legal term. Unless you have a manufacturers license you do not ever manufacture even though thats what it seems like . As an end user you are a maker. You make something. You do not manufacture. Make and Manufacture are deeply embedded in US code and should not be confused.

 

[The Heretic]

Its not that the gun hasnt changed its just that whatever the gun was originally they seem to be fine with it going back to.

The ATF isn't necessarily "fine with it" - they fought it in court and lost. If they had their way they would say once a rifle always a rifle. That is the basis of my assertion regarding Shockwave/et. al. "firearms".

If you read the letter the ATF wrote in response to Mossberg, it states one of the criteria as:

"Utilizes a shotgun-type receiver that has never had a shoulder stock attached."

Emphasis added mine.

My assumption is based on that "never". Not "when designed". Not "when manufactured". Not "when sold". Never. There are no qualifiers on that criteria beyond "never".

never

adverb

1. 1.
   at no time in the past or future; on no occasion; not ever.
   

Hence:

It is a "firearm" because at no time was it ever a shotgun.

If at some point in time, it becomes a shotgun by someone attaching a shoulder stock to it, then it can never again be a "firearm".

 

[308]

 

[Boboclown]

Again ..."manufacture" is a legal term. Unless you have a manufacturers license you do not manufacture. You are a maker. You make something.

It is not a legal term, its just a term that's broad in its definition. To manufacture is to make something, usually on a large scale but not necessarily.

Its becomes a legal term when you say manufacturer.

 

[arakboss]

The braces are on the radar of the anti-gunners:

https://vpc.org/regulating-the-gun-industry/pistol-braces-that-evade-federal-restrictions-on-short-barreled-rifles/

 

[wired]

It is not a legal term, its just a term that's broad in its definition. To manufacture is to make something, usually on a large scale but not necessarily.

Its becomes a legal term when you say manufacturer.

No , thats the dictionary definition. And yes it is defined in 18USC 921-23. The ATF requires anyone engaging in the business of firearms manufacture to be licensed. If you are a maker as an end user then there is no licensing requirement as you are not engaged in manufacturing which is a commercial endeavor.

https://www.atf.gov/file/11711/download#:~:text=Held%2C%20any%20person%20(including%20any,as%20part%20of%20a%20%E2%80%9Cweapon%20%E2%80%A6

 

[Boboclown]

Braces always have been the moment they found out about them.

And its been known to some already that the ATF was already looking to ban them (you can guess under whose orders, and it isn't 44).

No , thats the dictionary definition. And yes it is defined in 18USC 921

(10) The term "manufacturer" means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution; and the term "licensed manufacturer" means any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

That only says who a manufacturer is, nothing else. You still manufacture a gun, even if its for personal use. You are a manufacturer when you meet the criteria listed above. You are a manufacturer because you engage in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammo for sale or distribution. However, if you only manufacture such firearms or ammunition for yourself, you manufactured them but you are not a manufacturer.

 

[EHJ]

This article is about marking requirements - but it illustrates between a "Manufacturer" (and their markings) and a "Maker".

A person who manufactures* without a "Manufacturer's License" is a "Maker".

I understand the confusing semantics in common use - but the ATF is pretty clear.

UPDATE: ATF Clarifies Form 1 Marking Requirements - The Truth About Guns

&#9664Previous Post Next Post▶ Back at SHOT Show I asked the ATF agents at their booth a simple question: once you have an approved Form 1 to make and register a NFA weapon, when are you required to engrave your manufacturing information on your new firearm? The response was somewhat surprising...

www.thetruthaboutguns.com

It's also on the form itself.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/form/form-1-application-make-and-register-firearm-atf-form-53201/download

I didn't just read this stuff lately.


ATF reversal details: ATF Reverses 50 Years Of Agency Practice to Go After Home Made Gun Makers

 

[2A2Dend]

Someone save me the time of reading the whole thread.
What "brace" (or braces) are in the ATF's radar?

 

[Member 34319]

@wired is correct. The ATF (key word here) "defines" a company that makes guns to sell as a "manufacturer"

An individual is "defined" as a "maker"

An individual can make a gun from scratch. If the individual decides to make them to sell, he becomes a manufacturer.

You can legally make a gun. Even NFA guns as long as you get your registration approved and pay the applicable $200 tax.

You can manufacturer guns with correct licenses and sell them for profit.

Not sure what's confusing about this.

The ATF and courts have torn apart every aspect of a meaning of a single word when it comes to determining things. I'm the case of the two words "maker" and "manufacturer " they are both quite different in the realm of gun legalities and are very much considered legal terms in those regards.

 

[The Heretic]

Someone save me the time of reading the whole thread.
What "brace" (or braces) are in the ATF's radar?

Only the ATF knows for sure - if there is a blip on their radar at all.

We will have to wait and see.

 

[Member 34319]

Someone save me the time of reading the whole thread.
What "brace" (or braces) are in the ATF's radar?

From what I understand, none. This whole thread is a fear mongering absurdity over a podcast recording between a lawmaker and secret ATF ninjas.

Everything being reported is purely speculation and sensationalism.

 

[Boboclown]

From what I understand, none. This whole thread is a fear mongering absurdity over a podcast recording between a lawmaker and secret ATF ninjas.

Everything being reported is purely speculation and sensationalism.

Not that they'd be wrong though.

 

[2A2Dend]

Thanks @ The Heretic


On another note. Ten pages and no one knows what brace(s) in question it is.
And no credits for taking this class.

 

[EHJ]

A little more clarification this morning from TFB>
It's an on-going thing.

Breaking News: ATF's Secret Brace Ban -

The ATF is at it again. On the surface they are trying a brace ban. But under the surface lies a darker issue. They are secretly trying to ban the brace. The ATF is going against executive orders and making secret rules and policy without the public's knowledge and yet are held responsible to...

www.thefirearmblog.com

 

[The Heretic]

A little more clarification this morning from TFB>
It's an on-going thing.

Breaking News: ATF's Secret Brace Ban -

The ATF is at it again. On the surface they are trying a brace ban. But under the surface lies a darker issue. They are secretly trying to ban the brace. The ATF is going against executive orders and making secret rules and policy without the public's knowledge and yet are held responsible to...

www.thefirearmblog.com

Basically the same article I posted to several days ago IIRC.

 

[wollzy]

Basically the same article I posted to several days ago IIRC.

Yea doesn't seem to provide any new information. We still don't know what the rule changes are or if it's even a ban on braces at all.

 

[wired]

Braces always have been the moment they found out about them.

And its been known to some already that the ATF was already looking to ban them (you can guess under whose orders, and it isn't 44).



(10) The term "manufacturer" means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution; and the term "licensed manufacturer" means any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

That only says who a manufacturer is, nothing else. You still manufacture a gun, even if its for personal use. You are a manufacturer when you meet the criteria listed above. You are a manufacturer because you engage in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammo for sale or distribution. However, if you only manufacture such firearms or ammunition for yourself, you manufactured them but you are not a manufacturer.

Your'e really not getting the whole ATF designation of what a manufacturer is vs what a maker is to the ATF bit so I will cease to argue the point.

 

[Boboclown]

Your'e really not getting the whole ATF designation of what a manufacturer is vs what a maker is to the ATF bit so I will cease to argue the point.

I said manufacture, not manufacturer. One letter makes a big difference. Just because you MANUFACTURE doesn't mean you are a MANUFACTURER. But you still MANUFACTURED.

Not in business of it, you are not a MANUFACTURER but you did MANUFACTURE something still. Just not for business. You never posted anything that said otherwise.