ATF investigated 20 background check denials in 2015

[billdeserthills]

That is up to you.

If you thought he was suspicious enough to question the decision of NICS/FBI and mention it to them, then that should be enough for you to find some excuse to not sell to the person.

If you want to say "meh - not my problem", then that is your decision too - but you can't blame NICS/FBI for your decision to go ahead and sell if you thought they were making a mistake. You could have just said to them "come back in a week" or given some other excuse.

I was brand new at selling guns, it was my first or second gun show and I still believed that the FBI/NICS actually knew what they were doing. It didn't take long for me to see that they were a bunch of misguided idiots.

Actually I made plenty of mistakes as an FFL, one of the one's I regret was letting the ATF take my 4473 records out of my shop on many occasions--They told me a great story that ended with "we'll hafta close your store down if you don't allow us to take those records" and I believed them, later that day when the director of the local ATF shop called, to thank me for allowing them to take my records away, I believed them more--Too bad You weren't around to help me out back then, Mr Helper Guy

 

[The Heretic]

I was brand new at selling guns, it was my first or second gun show and I still believed that the FBI/NICS actually knew what they were doing. It didn't take long for me to see that they were a bunch of misguided idiots.

Actually I made plenty of mistakes as an FFL, one of the one's I regret was letting the ATF take my 4473 records out of my shop on many occasions--They told me a great story that ended with "we'll hafta close your store down if you don't allow us to take those records" and I believed them, later that day when the director of the local ATF shop called, to thank me for allowing them to take my records away, I believed them more--Too bad You weren't around to help me out back then, Mr Helper Guy

We all learn sooner or later

 

[billdeserthills]

I have managed to stay out of prison so far, so I guess I can't complain too much

 

[The Heretic]

I had an advantage.

After two years in the military I started to get an inkling that maybe the government was somewhat clueless - by the time my enlistment was up, I was convinced and I had enough. They couldn't pay me enough to re-enlist and I told them so.

 

[Guardian 380]

After my first denial I started doing research and found that by the ATF's own's account as many as 40% of denials may be erroneous. I have carry cards for both Washington and Oregon, have a pile of NFA items. About 85% of the time I get delayed and about half of those I get denied and have to appeal them. I have had transactions that took over a year to get finished and in the 5 years or so I have been dealing with this I have spent around $15,000 on attorneys fees and am currently suing the FBI because they cant seem to get my records straight. I would guess I have had around ten deny's. It seems like there is no rhyme nor reason to what happens after I get one. I have had the ATF call the store within a few days after the 4473 was submitted and then the deny has been reversed and at the other extreme I have had my appeal denied after months and then have to call in the big guns to get it sorted. To be fair I at one point did have a mark on my record that was a prohibiting factor so I know what my issues are. However you would think that once you had your rights back you had them back. Its not been the case for me. It has been an expensive and constant struggle to ensure my right to own a firearm. If I would not have been able to spend the dough on a good attorney I would have just been screwed as there is nothing an individual can do to set things straight if the FBI wants to dick you around.

After my first denial I started doing research and found that by the ATF's own's account as many as 40% of denials may be erroneous. I have carry cards for both Washington and Oregon, have a pile of NFA items. About 85% of the time I get delayed and about half of those I get denied and have to appeal them. I have had transactions that took over a year to get finished and in the 5 years or so I have been dealing with this I have spent around $15,000 on attorneys fees and am currently suing the FBI because they cant seem to get my records straight. I would guess I have had around ten deny's. It seems like there is no rhyme nor reason to what happens after I get one. I have had the ATF call the store within a few days after the 4473 was submitted and then the deny has been reversed and at the other extreme I have had my appeal denied after months and then have to call in the big guns to get it sorted. To be fair I at one point did have a mark on my record that was a prohibiting factor so I know what my issues are. However you would think that once you had your rights back you had them back. Its not been the case for me. It has been an expensive and constant struggle to ensure my right to own a firearm. If I would not have been able to spend the dough on a good attorney I would have just been screwed as there is nothing an individual can do to set things straight if the FBI wants to dick you around.

Shouldn't they have to tell you why you are being delayed/denied? It must be for the same "reason" if it's ongoing

 

[IronMonster]

Actually no, that is not the way it works. The "reason" is "We have determined you are ineligible to posses a firearm due to some code" They will not give specifics and it is impossible to talk with anyone who will provide answers (it is impossible for a individual and difficult for an attorney)

And what is worse that after all the fighting I was able to get a letter from the US Department of Justice that states I am eligible to posses or receive a firearm which means absolutely nothing during a NCIC check.

It says the stuff I have I can have, but I still have to fight about 50% of transactions to buy anything new.

 

[billdeserthills]

The FBI won't even confirm receipt of the info I sent them to confirm that my rights have been restored. I was just lucky that in AZ, having a ccw card bypasses the nics/fbi check--The state wasn't bashful, they were happy to honor the legal document and allow me to exercise my right to own & conceal a gun

 

[Flopsweat]

That's why I always put my SSN on the form even though it isn't required.

But I probably don't need to - my name, both first and last, and especially the combination of the two, is not common at all. Then add that my first name is spelled in such a way that people mistake me for female before they meet me, combined with putting the gender on the form, makes it very unlikely that someone with my name is on a list for denial. I think there are maybe at most 20 people in the USA with my name, then you add my middle name which is a very rare family name, and no one else has my name - at least not in the USA.

I guess my biggest risk is if someone stole my identity, but that doesn't actually happen very often. Had it happen to a coworker; someone filed a tax return using his ID and got a refund, so his taxes every year are a hassle.

The only time I've ever been delayed was the time I forgot to fill in the SSN line on the 4473.

 

[Pandaz3]

I have had two day waits before and I always asked if it would not be better if I used my Concealed Carry card. At that time it was no, Drivers License only. Then they started using the Concealed Carry here in Oregon and I get thru as rapidly as the queue moves. Your Concealed Carry in Oregon still requires the OSP to sign off on your purchase. I get around some of it by buying two or three guns at a time and just doing one background check...don't tell the grabbers!

 

[billdeserthills]

I have had two day waits before and I always asked if it would not be better if I used my Concealed Carry card. At that time it was no, Drivers License only. Then they started using the Concealed Carry here in Oregon and I get thru as rapidly as the queue moves. Your Concealed Carry in Oregon still requires the OSP to sign off on your purchase. I get around some of it by buying two or three guns at a time and just doing one background check...don't tell the grabbers!

You do know the FBI is also sent a second alert when you buy multiple guns?

 

[Pandaz3]

You do know the FBI is also sent a second alert when you buy multiple guns?

Then they must have quite the dossier on me!

 

[Massolo]

Another thing is it really limits what I can do. Knowing I have a pretty good chance of getting denied I really can only deal with one of the couple of FFL's who knows and has been through my mess before. Even then its not really fair to them. Like I said I had one transaction that took over a year, during that time the FFL has to hold this firearm that I have already paid for. I cant buy anything used with I594 for fear that it will cause a mess and its hard to explain to someone "Hey, I really am not a prohibited person but I very likely could get denied"

Its a mess, It could very simply be solved by someone at the FBI spending a few minutes to correct my records but that is not the way the system works. Instead every transaction over years has become a drawn out battle with lawyers, over and over and over. I can tell you first hand, the background check system is a tool that can be used to keep people from buying guns if they choose to use it that way and there is next to nothing you can do about it.

I've gone through something similar, but you can't call up the FBI and change anything. They just record what the state tells them. If you've got court orders and such from your state, send it to the FBI yourself, as Oregon state employees are not that interested in doing customer service.

 

[jbett98]

I just mailed off the last set of papers, plus a money order for $135.00 to Utah's San Juan County Justice Center to seal up that nuisance Class B misdemeanor from 1980.
That will keep the OSP off my back the next time they clear my records in four years and three months.
Total cost by doing it myself and excluding an attorney's involvement was only $245.00.

 

[IronMonster]

I've gone through something similar, but you can't call up the FBI and change anything. They just record what the state tells them. If you've got court orders and such from your state, send it to the FBI yourself, as Oregon state employees are not that interested in doing customer service.

Oh you have no everloving idea

I have sent paperwork to the FBI maybe 25 times. I have paperwork from the FBI, State Supreme Court and even the Governors office that says I am good to go. I still get denied. The FBI told me I needed a UPIN in one letter where they verified my right to own a firearm, so I applied for one and they denied the application saying I was prohibited, so with my lawyer I fought that and I reapplied for a UPIN, that was almost a year ago and It's still pending. I have two lawyers who do nothing but firearms law working on this since 2010. Believe me, I have done the things, jumped through every hoop. That is why I am suing the FBI, the attorneys say there is nothing left to do.

 

[jbett98]

The proverbial Catch 22.

 

[jbett98]

 

[billdeserthills]

Then they must have quite the dossier on me!

In oregon the extra notice is only filed when you buy more than one handgun in a week

 

[PaulB47]

166,000 NICS denials. 20 prosecutions.

I keep telling you guys. The point of the law is not to prosecute bad guys. It is to make life more difficult for good guys. And that only happens if people pay attention to the laws. Enforcement is almost all in our heads - not in cops, courts or prosecutions.

 

[Old Wanderer]

Every since background check became necessary I was always delayed. Applied for a UPIN and was denied. However the stated the reasons. Contacted a few attorneys and decided waiting 3 days was way cheaper than paying the money.
Last year, went to pickup a Gun Broker purchase and expected my usual delay. (Knew the FFL well). Instead I was denied. Then I found our NICS had re-assigned staff and were not processing appeals.
I started on a do-it-yourself of cleaning my record. (I have no convictions except for traffic tickets).
Took about 5 months of letters and phone calls to 3 states. (All the people I found to courteous and helpful). When I finally had all my documentation, I again submitted an appended appeal to NICS including my documentations. I then contacted my Congressman, and explained the situation and that NICS was not processing any appeals. (Supplied my paperwork to him as well.) One of his admin aides was assigned to my case, he called my and said it would take about 3 months. I also reapplied for a UPIN.
5 weeks later I got a letter from NICS to take to FFL to proceed. (However I had sold the Kimber I ordered, so no reason for him to call.)
On week 6 I received a UPIN #.
Several months went by and I spotted a 10mm Kimber TLR at a gun store that I wanted to trade for. I advised them of the previous denial and what I had done about it.
We put in the data on line, along with my SSN and UPIN #.....waited, and waited, and finally after almost an hour...PROCEED.
Total cost to me financially, less than $50, but way more than that in anxiety....
The key was 2 fold:
1. If you certain you are not prohibited, do not give up. I had to twice appeal Californian they showed a CA CCW and an arrest. (But no resolution as to what happened after arrest). I sent to FBI NICS denial was sue to lack of final disposition of arrest. (No charges were filed).
2. The used of your Congressman who they will pay attention too if they get a request. (Mine was an X Sherriff so he was pro-gun but anti-crime).

Good luck to all that have Big Brother looking out for your welfare.