Washington An AR15 pistol question.

[jassing]

Um, a friend. yea. a friend... He had a stripped AR15 lower laying around & decided to do something with it -- after futzing about, he built a no-frills AR15 pistol in 300aac. Pistol length, pistol brace, etc..
A question of its legality has come up. Since the lower was not sold as a pistol, the whole thing maybe be illegal.
If this is true, and it isn't legal, I, I mean he, does have an 80% lower that was milled out years ago and is currently in a long range ar15. the two could probably be swapped; would that then make the pistol more or less illegal? (or more importantly, if it is currently illegal, would swapping them make them legal?)

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[JohnnyMac]

Following....for a friend.

 

[Vulpes]

I mean I think technically if first assembled as a rifle its therefore a rifle receiver. But who tf would need to know.

 

[Tony617]

It depends of if the lower was sold by the FFL as a rifle or as an other. I have bought rifles so it shows I bought a rifles when I bought them. But for my stripped lower receivers my FFL shows it as "other" so it is up to me if I want to build a rifle or a pistol. If he has the paperwork your friend can look at that and see or if the FFL is still in business you might contacting them directly.

 

[Mike7b]

Out of curiosity, why did a question of its legality come up. According to the law, it would be illegal to switch lowers with his 80* because it was a rifle first, unless he had put a pistol upper on it first, then it could be switched back and forth between pistol and rifle. Since this comes up frequently, questioning whether or not the stripped lower was sold as a rifle, pistol or other, my question is, has anybody ever bought a stripped lower that was not sold as other?

 

[coop44]

Was it EVER sold or transfered as a rifle or pistol? If not, how the heck would anyone know? Never seen a stripped lower sold as anything but an "other".

 

[Decoy]

Well if you have an 80% lower it is not considered an rifle or pistol by the ATF until it has a s/n and is logged in through a FFL.

I believe if you put a pistol upper on a lower that is considered a rifle you would have a SBR and need a tax stamp to be legal.

If it were me I would switch the 80% lower to the pistol upper (with pistol brace being swamped also).

Not a lawyer by any means but better to be safe than sorry.

I always try to error on the side of, if in doubt don't do it. Worst case I would buy a stripped lower for 40 bucks and register it as a pistol.

Not a fan of the 80% lowers since the pin hole have no coating and will continue to wear as used. I have hear of triggers getting loose and going full auto.

 

[jassing]

Thanks. I'll check on the paperwork... The 80% is a polymer, it has not had any issues with parts wiggling... Moreover, it was never "registered" as either pistol, rifle, or other...

The original lower was likewise never registered as R, P, or O. It was made directly to a pistol.

Thanks for the info.

 

[SHOOTZMEDLER]

Your lower being an 80% doesn't have a SN right??

If it does...

An FFL will always list a stripped lower as other or as a pistol receiver. If you bring in a complete lower with a stock its a rifle. If you bring it in with a brace it's a pistol. If you bring in a completed lower without a stock or brace on it it will be listed as other or pistol.

Now with that being said if you bring in a lower only w/o a stock or a brace and tell them its for a rifle they may list it as rifle. I always suggest registering as other or as a pistol because you can always make a pistol a rifle but not the other way around.

Hope that helps.

 

[jassing]

80% has no s/n. Never brought into an FLL.
I must have missed the notice that all 80% need retroactive serial #'s...
Are you saying that this 80% is now illegal because A) it has no serial # and B) it's never been to an FFL to be 'registered'?

 

[SHOOTZMEDLER]

Just the opposite ^^
80s don't need registered

 

[quneur]

80%, to my understanding, does not need to go through an FFL. It can be sold in its 80% rough form face to face. The person who finished it now owns it. It becomes part of an untraceable firearm and no one may help finishing it and can't be sold until a S/N is engraved into it and registered by an FFL like any finished receiver. Now, if its only a receiver its sold/transfered as other, built as pistol, sold/transfered as a pistol, rifle as a rifle. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[quneur]

Concerning lowers, any finished lower is considered an 'other' whether a brace or stock is put on it. But the moment you place an upper with 14.5 barrel with a fixed two inch min. muzzle device or longer 16" barrel, it becomes a rifle (brace or stock) and stays a rifle. If a shorter barrel upper on a lower with a brace, it becomes a pistol. Then the laws are a bit tricky.

A shorter than 16" barrelled upper on a lower must have a brace or bare tube. If it has a stock it becomes an NFA item. The tricky part is when you claim the firearm is a long barrelled pistol. The BATF probably say such don't exist on the AR platform.

People are suggesting building it as a pistol first due to being able to switch it into a rifle because a rifle can have both a stock or brace. Because purchasing requirements for pistols are more stringent than a rifle, switching from pistol to rifle is allowed but the reverse is not. And because its registered originally as pistol it can be changed back into a pistol. But all this is contingent upon one owner and no transfers.

 

[Mike7b]

Why does it need to be registered by a ffl? Just curious as I'm not up on Washington laws. Here in the free state of Idaho, we can sell ftf, no need for ffl transfers.

 

[jassing]

That was my point, I wasn't aware of it needing to be registered. Even selling it isn't illegal w/o serial # -- it's your intention that matters -- "did you build it with the intent of selling it?" Yes=needs a serial#, No=you're ok. At least, that's my understanding. I now WA law changed and a lot of 80% won't even ship here. Funny, I was down in California for 2 years, there I expect AR's to be illegal soon. I left (for about 20 years) an AK in storage. What was legal when it went into storage, was now completely illegal since I missed a grace period of registering it. You have some pretty dumb laws down there regarding AR's "scary & illegal features"; but people have come up with ways that don't really make it any less...
Good to know Idaho is still free. I'm actually starting a western-state tour next spring to find a new place to call home, just for nothing more than a change of scenery before I am called back to California in a few years.

Based on comments -- I think I'm OK. Um, I mean my friend is ok. Sometimes bench rest lawyers (armchair quarterbacks) know just enough to cause problems -- they speak so with such conviction and always had a friend that "just went thru that, so he knows" makes me worry sometimes... This was one of them. I just wanted a small silence-able home defense weapon and used mostly parts on hand...

thank you to everyone who helped set me straight.

 

[SHOOTZMEDLER]

^

 

[BrentN]

Concerning lowers, any finished lower is considered an 'other' whether a brace or stock is put on it. But the moment you place an upper with 14.5 barrel with a fixed two inch min. muzzle device or longer 16" barrel, it becomes a rifle (brace or stock) and stays a rifle. If a shorter barrel upper on a lower with a brace, it becomes a pistol. Then the laws are a bit tricky.

A shorter than 16" barrelled upper on a lower must have a brace or bare tube. If it has a stock it becomes an NFA item. The tricky part is when you claim the firearm is a long barrelled pistol. The BATF probably say such don't exist on the AR platform.

People are suggesting building it as a pistol first due to being able to switch it into a rifle because a rifle can have both a stock or brace. Because purchasing requirements for pistols are more stringent than a rifle, switching from pistol to rifle is allowed but the reverse is not. And because its registered originally as pistol it can be changed back into a pistol. But all this is contingent upon one owner and no transfers.

Cheek Rest Kits - AR Pistol | Thordsen Customs

www.thordsencustoms.com

So this is a cheek rest, not a stock.

 

[quneur]

If you're still unsure, Dan @ Sporting Systems on this board is the person to talk to.

 

[wired]

When guns are built by manufacturers they pay excise tax. On Rifles they pay a lower rate and on pistols a higher rate. That data is recorded. The ATF knows what a receiver started out as. If it is sold as a stripped lower or even an assembled lower without an upper it NEVER should be sold as anything other than a "other" . Never as a pistol. Never as a rifle. In any case if it was sold as a rifle when new it has to stay that way. Otherwise it can be a rifle or a pistol.

It gets a little tricky when stripped lowers are sold that came from excise tax paid rifles. It may be possible to contact the ATF to check excise tax status. I had a customer do it years ago when checking on a preban Colt and they did give out the information. .

 

[arakboss]

When guns are built by manufacturers they pay excise tax. On Rifles they pay a lower rate and on pistols a higher rate. That data is recorded. The ATF knows what a receiver started out as. If it is sold as a stripped lower or even an assembled lower without an upper it NEVER should be sold as anything other than a "other" . Never as a pistol. Never as a rifle. In any case if it was sold as a rifle when new it has to stay that way. Otherwise it can be a rifle or a pistol.

It gets a little tricky when stripped lowers are sold that came from excise tax paid rifles. It may be possible to contact the ATF to check excise tax status. I had a customer do it years ago when checking on a preban Colt and they did give out the information. .

If a person builds a firearm and then later on decides to sell it, was an excise tax due? I assumed the excise tax was only paid by firearm manufactures.