1898 weapons question

[ditchtiger]

Can I still buy or sell Pre-1898 firearms without a background check?

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[Andy54Hawken]

It is my understanding that if:
The pre-1898 firearm does not fire readily available ammunition then you do not need a BGC.

In most states antique muzzleloaders and replica / reproduction muzzleloaders are also exempt from needing a BGC...Some states like Illinois for example will require a BGC on a replica / reproduction muzzleloader.
Andy

 

[ditchtiger]

These are Mosin's.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Again as I understand the law / ruling.... A Mosin would need a BGC , because ammo is readily available.
That said , I am not a lawyer , nor do I play one on TV.
Andy

 

[jordanka16]

Anything made pre-1899 is an antique and not subject to the same laws as another firearm. A mosin with a receiver date pre 1899 would qualify even if it fires modern ammo.

And btw it is the receiver that qualifies, it's not like c&r where it has to be original, you could tacticool one out and it would still qualify.

 

[Argonaut]

I own and have bought many pre 1898 guns. Have never heard anything about the availability of ammo. I don't think that is an issue.......all the antique gun dealers sell pre 1898 Colt 45's for instance directly without FFL assistance. I have heard people being concerned by highly modified (upgraded) rifles being an issue but have never seen that in the law either. To the ATF, the serial numbered receiver is the gun.....doesn't seem that modifications would matter (and to most people it doesn't) off course, you will find sellers that insist everything go through a FFL but that is there own issue, not the law. Some guns are difficult to date but others are not. I like M1891 Mausers and have many. If they are made by Lowe they are pre 1898, if they are DWM they may not be. Lowe became DWM in 1896. Black powder guns don't require a BBC, neither does a conversion cylinder to make some revolvers fire conventional ammo skirting the law completely but that is another issue.

 

[ma96782]

Please note that you're dealing with 2 different sets of laws.

Federal Law.

And......

State Law.

You must follow both to be entirely LEGAL.

Aloha, Mark

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Please bear with me as I am no computer expert...
If you go to atf.gov and type in antique rifles in the search bar...
Then go to Gun Control Act defines Antique Firearms...
You will see:
The ATF states that ammo must no longer be made in the US or obtainable through ordinary means of trade.
Again I am not a lawyer nor play one on TV...
Andy

 

[ma96782]

Yes, yes, yes.....

C&R firearms definitions?*

Antique definitions?

Definition of Firearm(s) in general?

Requirements to BGC and waiting periods? What can/cannot be bought mail order? And, in some places registration requirements.

All of it makes a difference.......so, again. Federal and State Laws. Both must be followed.

*Not all C&R firearms are antiques.

Aloha, Mark

 

[jordanka16]

Please bear with me as I am no computer expert...
If you go to atf.gov and type in antique rifles in the search bar...
Then go to Gun Control Act defines Antique Firearms...
You will see:
The ATF states that ammo must no longer be made in the US or obtainable through ordinary means of trade.
Again I am not a lawyer nor play one on TV...
Andy

That section is only for replicas of antique guns, all guns made 1898 or earlier are considered antique regardless of caliber. If someone made an 1860 Henry in original 44 rim fire it would be considered antique, even though it is newly made, but a repro 1873 springfield is not, since 45-70 is common, but original springfields made before 1899 ( I think they all are) are antiques.

And yes recent changes to state law may have affected this, I am not sure.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

That same section also has this to say:
1 Is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition or
2 Uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade
Andy

That section is only for replicas of antique guns, all guns made 1898 or earlier are considered antique regardless of caliber. If someone made an 1860 Henry in original 44 rim fire it would be considered antique, even though it is newly made, but a repro 1873 springfield is not, since 45-70 is common, but original springfields made before 1899 ( I think they all are) are antiques.

And yes recent changes to state law may have affected this, I am not sure.

 

[jordanka16]

16) The term "antique firearm" means -
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica -
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or

The or separates the two passages, so the ammo part only applies to replicas.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

You all do what you want...
Andy

 

[ma96782]

LOL......
A person buys a Colt 1860 revolver (loose BP firing firearms are antiques* right)? No BGC, no waiting period, purchase via a mail order place, and in some places there is no registration requirements......Rrrright.

What if that person was a Felon? Felon in possession of a firearm? Guilty or not?

Yup, it's by definition an, "antique." Hummm......maybe, because it is BP, the liberals have finally conceded to "......shall not be infringed" means what it says?

Wait, is it even a "firearm" for the purpose of the statute? Perhaps, a Felon might/should also want to look up the State statute(s)? To be certain of the definitions and what in particular the ands/ifs/and buts of Felon in Possession Prohibited Statute reads as.

Hummm, what if......
Say that antiques and/or BP firearms were exempt from registration and BGCs. So, a regular person converts that Colt 1860 revolver with a Kirst Cartridge Conversion Cylinder. What now? It's the FRAME that determines it's treatment.....Rrrrright? Would it NOW have to be registered (if required) or a BGC done? Did the Liberals miss all of this?

Awww hell.....some people just want to take all the fun out of this.

Aloha, Mark

*Modern reproduction or real deal 1860, should it matter? Both can kill and both still uses loose BP (not modern cartridges) at this point.

 

[KKG]

Andy: You tried. MK

The Judge will tell him.

 

[jordanka16]

http://www.rawles.to/ATF_Ltr.1_Excised.jpg

http://www.rawles.to/ATF_Ltr.2.jpg

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Again I refer to the actual ATF site..not someone else
atf.gov has what I quoted...SIGH
As this is my last word on this...do what you all want...
Andy

 

[wired]

Pre 1898 does not need a BGC. They are not subject to the GCA because the GCA only covers firearms. Firearms are only post 1898. Pre 1898 are not "firearms" no matter what. Ammo has nothing to do with it as that is a restriction on replicas. Bought and sold a few antiques through the mail over the years.


Are NICS background checks required for the transfer of antique firearms? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives


Are NICS background checks required for the transfer of antique firearms?
No. Because weapons that meet the definition of an "antique firearm" are not firearms subject to the GCA, licensees need not conduct a background check when transferring an antique firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3), 921(a)(16), 922(t); 27 CFR 478.11 and 478.102]


Do antique firearms come within the purview of the GCA? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives



Do antique firearms come within the purview of the GCA?
No, assuming the antique firearm is not a replica designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition. The antique firearm also cannot be a black powder muzzle loading weapon that incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, have been converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or uses fixed ammunition (or readily converted to do so).

[18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3) and (16); 27 CFR 478.11 and 478.141(d)]

 

[Argonaut]

I buy guns from many places like the guys at antiqueguns.com. The caliber or design have no effect on what can be sold as an antique. If a M1878 Colt is made in 1886, it requires no FFL for a transfer.....if it in made in 1901 (like one I am watching right now) it does.....either a class 1 or a C&R. Even pre 1898 breech loading cannons are legal (noteably the Hotchkiss) it is all manufacture date driven.

 

[justcuz]

The term "antique firearm" means any firearm (including any firearm with a Matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898. The definition includes any replica of an antique firearm if it is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or uses rimfire or conventional centerfire ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States, and which is not readily available in ordinary channels of commercial trade. Further, any muzzle loading rifle, shotgun, or pistol which is designed to use black powder or black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition, is an "antique firearm" unless it (1) incorporates a firearm frame or receiver; (2) is a firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon; or (3) is a muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.
See 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3), (a)(16).

Please refer to the specific USC for further information.