Would I have been the bad guy?

[mjbskwim]

What a horrible feeling....Being shook from a head on impact, kids injured/crying in the car. What a nightmare!

I'm wondering, how the law would look upon using a gun to defeat a fist? I'm not laying any judgement here, but for me I would think ANYTHING would be better than pulling a trigger. If the guy had thrown a punch and you pulled the trigger you may end up in a legal hell, with no written "Stand Your Ground" type law in Oregon. Even if you came out on top it could ruin a year or more of your life, and ruin you financially.

Mike

This would be true with almost any shooting but you still need to defend your child.
If you are injured and he is hitting you,well,even if you aren't injured,he could land deadly blows.
Do you know if he was a boxer at any point? What happens to your daughter after he knocks you out?

 

[DeanfromOregon]

To Dean, I would have shot had he forced that. I think everyone hopes that the person stops prior to that being needed but if I draw I am always prepared to do what needs to be done. In my mindset in that moment I just wanted him to stop moving to the car and stay back.

I'm glad you showed restraint and we all have those fleeting thoughts sometimes when things get hinky. If you were to have drawn, and then used the language you used in your post above, you would have left yourself legally vulnerable to a azzhat cop and a menacing change. Again just my opinion as a Monday Morning QB, take it with a grain of salt and I'm glad you and the family are OK!

 

[FAST ED]

Glad you and your family will be OK. On the subject of to draw or use your weapon??? Im not a lawyer.....but it seems to me that it would be steep hill to climb claiming self defence with a handgun against an un-armed man that hadn't touched you yet.

just my .00002 cents

 

[Nwcid]

What a horrible feeling....Being shook from a head on impact, kids injured/crying in the car. What a nightmare!

I'm wondering, how the law would look upon using a gun to defeat a fist? I'm not laying any judgement here, but for me I would think ANYTHING would be better than pulling a trigger. If the guy had thrown a punch and you pulled the trigger you may end up in a legal hell, with no written "Stand Your Ground" type law in Oregon. Even if you came out on top it could ruin a year or more of your life, and ruin you financially.

Mike

A violent attack is a violent attack. I have no desire to ever have to draw a gun on anyone, let alone use it, I will to deter/stop a violent attack on myself or loved ones.

I have NO idea what the intent or capabilities of the attacker are. How do I KNOW he is not armed? Even if he is not how do I KNOW he will not get the upper hand on me causing me to loose life, limb or livelihood? Real simple, my life and everything about it is WAY more important then someone who has NO control of themselves.

 

[Joe Link]

Good thread.

More appropriate for the Strategies, Tactics, & Training section. Moved.

 

[Sgt Nambu]

.40, I'm very glad that you and the kids weren't seriously injured! I feel that you did perfect, especially given that you were in shock and pain!
I think that the "trigger point," NPI, would have been his opening of the car door! Seems a little too close but at that point bye bye! We all have to deal with the perceptions of those around us. Going beyond grasping the grips before that point would almost certainly be seen as overly aggressive!
I almost didn't bother writing this beyond offering condolences because MarkW did such an excellent job in his post! Ditto what he said!
Again best wishes for .40 and his family!

 

[GrpCapMandrake]

.40, I'm very glad that you and the kids weren't seriously injured! I feel that you did perfect, especially given that you were in shock and pain!
I think that the "trigger point," NPI, would have been his opening of the car door! Seems a little too close but at that point bye bye! We all have to deal with the perceptions of those around us. Going beyond grasping the grips before that point would almost certainly be seen as overly aggressive!
I almost didn't bother writing this beyond offering condolences because MarkW did such an excellent job in his post! Ditto what he said!
Again best wishes for .40 and his family!

.40 allow me to tack on my wishes for a quick recovery, and really glad to hear injuries were not very severe.

 

[Uberdillo]

Thanks for sharing your experience. I can easily imagine being in your shoes. I'm glad you're ok and hope you and your kids can recover and put it behind you soon.

Anyone else feel like those double yellow lines mean jack-bubblegum to other drivers anymore? Over the last couple years it's getting to be that I have a near miss every time I go out nowadays. How are you guys and gals taking control of your lane?

It also seems to be a phenomenon that folks that cause an accident end up raging. I wonder if that's why they made whatever stupid move to begin with or that's just their way of blaming others for their mistakes.

 

[40calruler]

40 Calruler~ After reading your thread and the replies that you received, which were excellent I might add. Looks like you did the right thing by being prepared and ready to protect your children.

I was a little zoned out from a pain pill nap yesterday afternoon but the feedback here is much appriciated. It helps to get the input of folks who understand having a gun on their hip as most people I know do not always have that option.
I am glad it turned out the way it did. I am unsure with my kids upset and one bleeding (she is fine btw she just popped a few of her stitches and they sewed it back together no problem) what it could have turned into if I was alone and unable to protect myself other than a weapon.
Thankfully it was just a close call and all the messages that support that and Marks wise comments on the issue along with others are much appreciated. At the end of the day it is good to have a forum of people who do understand the discipline and understanding of a bad situation it takes not to just pull a gun over just any threat. Many people think that's the first thing a gun toting guy does. Well I now can say for sure it is not. You do have a split second decision but it is enough to know right or wrong. I was fuzzy but thankfully other people stepped in and made it go down the right way.
Thanks for the advice and kind comments to my kids and I. I do feel better after hearing what people who know the feeling of that split second decision have to say about the situation.

 

[Koda]

Are there any charges you can press against they guy for threatening or maybe meanacing?

my take is the guy is going to go off on someone eventually.

 

[Miyamoto Musashi]

40cal best to you and yours hope you all recover well and quick. Thanks for posting gives great food for thought as I have little ones myself. In my eyes your motions of action were all correct. I have never even thought of training in a situation where myself and kids are hurt. Sorry this happened to you, I know the feeling of a car accident. That's why I give you great respect for controlling yourself.

 

[Sgt Nambu]

I was just thinking about how traumatic it would have been for your kids if you had actually had to poof that jerk! Best outcome, again, great job!

 

[etrain16]

Scary story. I had a guy try to run my wife and I off the road one time. I have no idea why. I didn't know the guy, I had never seen him or his truck before that moment. I'm guessing he thought we were someone else. I kept trying to get away from him, but if I tried to slow down, he would slow down right in front of me and try to make me hit him. It was before cell phones and before I had a carry permit and it was on a stretch of highway where there wasn't even a shoulder to pull over on. All I had on me was a tire iron I kept under the seat. This went on for several miles when he finally took off. No idea what I would have done if he had succeeded to stop us.

I hate to think that there are such unstable people out there, which is why I choose to carry to protect myself and my family. But with that on hand, I hope I never have to use it. In training they tell you to do whatever you can do avoid a bad situation if you can, and to do whatever you can to de-escalate the situation. I agree with you that it was a better decision to keep it holstered. In the situation you describe, with the other people around, it probably would have gone worse for you if you pulled the gun. I'm glad you didn't have to do that.

Glad to hear the kids are okay, and hope you get better soon.

 

[The Heretic]

What was he mad about?

That 40CR didn't get out of his way.

I've met people like that on the road - they think that someone in another lane is supposed to yield to them - this is especially true when merging from an on-ramp.

In fact, most people think that when they are merging onto a freeway that traffic is supposed to slow down or speed up for them. The opposite is true - traffic is supposed to maintain a steady speed, the merging car needs to speed up or slow down.

Most of us are polite, we do speed up/slow down or maybe even get over, but this is what causes accidents when done in heavy fast traffic.

The other possible mindset is that a good offense is a good defense - people who know they are wrong, but don't want to admit it, will go on the attack. Sometimes it works and the person in the right will apologize to defuse the situation, and then the person in the wrong has their admission of guilt from the person in the right and they run with it.

It is hard to know what this guy was thinking, but I would bet it was one of those two. Either way, a moron.

 

[Doc In UPlace]

Being prepared is more than being ready to shoot someone--- with no options ready in-between the two extremes of sitting there or shooting.

My view is if there are only those two options in the toolkit, a person is only partially prepared.

Review the use-of-force continuum and you'll see that appropriate responses can include verbal commands, holds and open hand techniques, closed fist, as well as less-lethal options such as OC or Tasers, if you have one.

Real life is most often NOT a shoot-or-nothing situation.

I'd suggest practicing verbal commands while you're driving. We practice verbal commands a the range, too, "show me your hands" "drop the weapon and get on the ground!" "back up, do it now!"

Scream it like you're about to go ballistic, scare the s**t out of them.
I carry a Mk. 9 can of Fox Labs 5.3 in the map pocket of my driver's door. That's the huge one, 1-pound party size.

Remember the jury will be sitting there judging you 6 months later, far removed from the heat of the moment, and the prosecutor will want to make you look as bad as possible and rack up another conviction for the scorecard.

By law, we can only use the level of force reasonable and necessary to overcome the threat.

If you've yelled at the aggressor to "back up! get back, do it now or I'll spray you" and they don't, then explaining why you gave 'em a face full of OC is going to be a lot easier than facing a manslaughter charge, whether you eventually prevail or not.

If you see a weapon that could be lethal coming at you, or a bunch of people who can overcome your less-than-lethal options, then by all means respond appropriately. But have some more tools in the kit.

 

[mjbskwim]

By law, we can only use the level of force reasonable and necessary to overcome the threat.

Please quote that law and link the RCW

You NEVER know who is attacking you till after the fact.
You DO NOT have the time or liberty to inquire the attacker of his skill level.
If your Lawyer doesn't have the ability to show that this person may have had very good skills at killing someone,or that you have to decide to shoot before you can access his skill level,then you need a new attorney

You are speculating and not giving fact

 

[Nwcid]

Being prepared is more than being ready to shoot someone--- with no options ready in-between the two extremes of sitting there or shooting.

My view is if there are only those two options in the toolkit, a person is only partially prepared.

Review the use-of-force continuum and you'll see that appropriate responses can include verbal commands, holds and open hand techniques, closed fist, as well as less-lethal options such as OC or Tasers, if you have one.

Real life is most often NOT a shoot-or-nothing situation.

I'd suggest practicing verbal commands while you're driving. We practice verbal commands a the range, too, "show me your hands" "drop the weapon and get on the ground!" "back up, do it now!"

Scream it like you're about to go ballistic, scare the s**t out of them.
I carry a Mk. 9 can of Fox Labs 5.3 in the map pocket of my driver's door. That's the huge one, 1-pound party size.

Remember the jury will be sitting there judging you 6 months later, far removed from the heat of the moment, and the prosecutor will want to make you look as bad as possible and rack up another conviction for the scorecard.

By law, we can only use the level of force reasonable and necessary to overcome the threat.

If you've yelled at the aggressor to "back up! get back, do it now or I'll spray you" and they don't, then explaining why you gave 'em a face full of OC is going to be a lot easier than facing a manslaughter charge, whether you eventually prevail or not.

If you see a weapon that could be lethal coming at you, or a bunch of people who can overcome your less-than-lethal options, then by all means respond appropriately. But have some more tools in the kit.

I am glad those are your views, but there is a lot wrong with it. Your point of view MAY be appropriate or even required for LEO but NOT for private citizens. Please show the law you are "quoting".

The use of "less then lethal" is ONLY appropriate in the SAME setting as use of deadly force. You can find yourself in equal, if not more trouble for using OC/Taser. The only time I would consider anything like that is if it was the best weapon I had.

I do fully agree that ANY time in a defensive situation you should be using lots of verbal commands.

 

[mjbskwim]

I believe CA has this type of hogwash ruling,but not here i WA yet

 

[Koda]

The use of "less then lethal" is ONLY appropriate in the SAME setting as use of deadly force. You can find yourself in equal, if not more trouble for using OC/Taser. The only time I would consider anything like that is if it was the best weapon I had.

would a large disparity of force in your favor warrant the use of less than lethal options (OC...) with an unarmed attacker?

 

[Nwcid]

would a large disparity of force in your favor warrant the use of less than lethal options (OC...) with an unarmed attacker?

There is NO way to KNOW the disparity in force until after the incident. How do you KNOW what the other person is capable of doing or their intent?

Real simple "less then lethal" does not mean it can not seriously injure or kill someone. So if you are going to use them they should only be used under the same situations where lethal would be appropriate. So IF you feel threatened enough to use "LTL" the threat would be enough to justify lethal force.

If I am attacked I will assume that they mean to kill me or seriously injure me which will change my life or lively hood. I have no reason to believe that ANYONE that would attack me would have other plans. So I will respond appropriately.

But that is where the continuum of force comes in. Verbal commands, expose firearm and continue with verbal commands, draw/aim and continue with verbal commands, finally more verbal commands followed by lethal force.