Would I have been the bad guy?

Discussion in 'Education & Training' started by 40calruler, Mar 19, 2014.

  1. 40calruler

    40calruler
    Lake Oswego
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    Got in a car accident this morning taking kids to school. My shoulder came out, knee was messed up since it has been being rehabbed for a long time after a work injury and the guy came over and partially clipped me head on in my lane when he was not paying attention.
    Multiple people stopped that were behind him but looking at my daughter who had stitches from soccer last week and her chin was bleeding and then a guy coming to the window trying to scream at me for what HE did I was not thinking and almost reached for it.
    A couple people grabbed the guy yelling it was his fault and I caught myself but in the moment the guy was yelling he was going to beat me and such and in pain and worried about the kids I almost drew to get him to back away. Not to shoot but to let him know I was not in a place to argue or fight. Would I have been in serious trouble being I was injured, had kids in the car, was far from a calm mind set?
    It was a very short half second thought and I thought better luckily but I wonder if I would have gone from victim to bad guy in a second had I had to get him to back away by drawing.
     
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  2. Mark W.

    Mark W.
    Silverton, OR
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    If the guy had laid hand on you or even opened the door to your car then most likely you would had justification. If you had pulled the trigger then you would need to have been in fear for your life or the life of another (IE your kids) If this was Oregon the only legal reason to point a firearm at someone is self defense.

    If the guy said he was going to beat you and was moving in your direction you would certainly have reason to believe your life was being threatened.

    In the conditions you lay out I think you would have been able to show self defense. At the same time I think you showed excellent training and self control by choosing not to ramp up the situation. At the very least had you pulled your piece and pointed at him you would have been dealing with police very possibly lawyers and ADA's instead of an insurance claim.

    Hopefully you or the police were able to get the names of the up right people that stood up for you and your kids after this happened. Their witness statements will make your path so much easier. As will it if the police sighted the jerk.

    Hope you and your kids recover quickly and I applaud you for keeping a cool head and not ending up on the news while still having the ability to make sure you and yours was safe from additional harm.
     
  3. 40calruler

    40calruler
    Lake Oswego
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    Thanks Mark, I for sure was in fear for safety when he was approaching and yelling he was going to do this and that to me. I knew with my shoulder out and knee messed up a fist fight was out of the question. Luckily I have dislocated quite a few things in the past so the pain was not as shocking as it might be to some.
    I think if the people had not grabbed him he would have kept coming and tried my door as that was what it looked like his intentions were. I had my hand on it but I wanted to be sure I needed it and thankfully people stopped that from being needed. They did give me their info and said they would tell insurance exactly what happened in the accident and I had nothing to worry about since he came in my lane and I had no time to react.
     
  4. EUGENE the REALTOR

    EUGENE the REALTOR
    Portland Metro
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    What was he mad about?
     
  5. DeanfromOregon

    DeanfromOregon
    Wilsonville
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    I'm by no means an expert, but I would say if you are not going draw your weapon prepared to shoot, best to leave it holstered.
     
  6. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf
    SE Portland
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    A face full a bear spray'll calm him right down.
     
  7. Nwcid

    Nwcid
    Yakima and N of Spokane
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    I have to agree with Mark.
     
  8. 40calruler

    40calruler
    Lake Oswego
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    He was yelling that I had hit him and I should have been looking where I was going. Which I was. He was arguing with the witnesses as well about it. Just had no plans on admitting he had came in my lane. It was clear but he was just in a rage. By the end he had calmed down but he was in my mind unaware he had swerved or had no intention of admitting it

    To Dean, I would have shot had he forced that. I think everyone hopes that the person stops prior to that being needed but if I draw I am always prepared to do what needs to be done. In my mindset in that moment I just wanted him to stop moving to the car and stay back.
     
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  9. Scott F

    Scott F
    Oregon City, OR
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    I think you did exceptionally well for the situation. Ready in spite of pain and shock and you did not over react. If he kept coming you should not have been it trouble for drawing.
     
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  10. RVTECH

    RVTECH
    LaPine
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    I too applaud your self control and restraint. Most likely most of the fight was taken out of you by the accident it seems, however - the guy's rage and threats were probably more out of him being upset and rattled - and not necessarily based in any sort of violence, and chances are it was all talk and he would have done nothing. BUT if he had advanced and possibly taken a swing that connected with you then it would have been all over for him and you would have had free reign to administer whatever form of legal action you could - and seeing him go to jail would be worth paying for. Then when he got out he would be no doubt facing charges along with whatever legal wrath you could lay on him to essentially ruin is life. Much better justice than him occupying a 6' X 6' piece of real estate.
     
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  11. Mark W.

    Mark W.
    Silverton, OR
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    The thing with self defense and a firearm that I have always followed (I have carried since about 1984 and yes I know that is 5+ years before the permit laws were changed I helped change them) is to never do more then is required. If putting your hand on your piece is what it takes to make you feel less threatened by being ready to meet the threat then do that. If drawing the piece and holding it down to your side is what it takes then do that. If drawing, aiming and dumping half the magazine or cylinder into center of mass is what it takes to remove the fear of imminent harm then that's what you have to do. The key as I see it is knowing, watching, reacting to the situation.

    You did just that you saw a threat, You prepared for the threat escalating (when you put your hand on your pistol) You watched the threat as it progressed (seeing him move towards you put being detained by witnesses. So your reaction in this situation was to NOT DRAW not escalate not make things worse then they had to be.

    As I said above you chose the best possible out come. Had you over reacted you could very well be facing the fact that you just put down the father of a couple kids who bumped his head on the steering wheel and wasn't thinking clear. Yet you were ready to deal with some crazy SOB with a rap sheet of assault reaching back to Jr High.

    OK enough said glad you and especially your kids are safe.
     
  12. Skang

    Skang
    WA
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    speed recovery for you and your kids.

    I honestly don't have an answer for your question, I will never know until I am in that situation.
     
  13. 3MTA3

    3MTA3
    DMZ between Liberty and Tyranny
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    Mark W nails it nothing else to add except I hope you have a speedy recovery and that life is a bit less interesting.
     
  14. MarkAd

    MarkAd
    Port Orchard
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    You done good Homer!!!!
     
  15. CoastRange57

    CoastRange57
    Western Oregon
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    If he approach's you yelling and all, then you need to go to a level 2 at least and forcefully order him to stop advancing on you, and begin a retreat yourself. If he keeps pursuing you, then again forcefully order him to stop,and keep retreating. There is a huge difference between brandishing and menancing. I was able to stop a criminal coming at me by pulling back my coat and putting my hand on my holstered weapon and telling him to get the f*** away from me and get the f*** off my property RIGHT NOW !. That was on my property, but I would do the same on public or other property.

    This puts you as the person running from the fight and not being the aggressor. You are merely responding to hostile approach's by someone you have ordered to leave you alone. Nobody is going to kick my a** over a traffic accident, but you should not have to go to a Level 3, ( hands on) or Level 4 ( deadly force) either.

    You have to be able to separate the emotions of the incident ( traffic accident) from his threat to your personal space and security. These are 2 clearly different situations. I could see where this could be confusing and hard to short out in a short time. Detaching yourself from the situation mentally and taking an overhead view at everything has to be considered.
     
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  16. Roland

    Roland
    SE Portland
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    I'm new to firearms and currently scheduled for an appointment with Multnomah County Sheriff to get my CHL, so reading real life situations like this help me think through the situation. My take is that the aggressor would have needed to try and enter your car for you to be fully justified in brandishing your gun. But I would hope you would try to calm the situation down by talking first, and only pulled your weapon and a last resort.

    But I have several friends who carry and most have stories of when they needed to draw. I know those times really happen, but I think some people who go to that level too easily. I have not been punched nor punched anyone since middle school and I'm 40 years old now. I was a bouncer ever Friday and Saturday for a year when I was 24 and was the only bouncer in the history of the club to never get in a fight. Why? Because I talk to people, even pissed off people, I don't disrespect people, even those who might deserve to be looked down upon. I stay calm use my mouth to resolve every situation possible even if it means I look/sound weak or wimpy. When I get my CHL, I sure hope that these tactics will help keep my gun concealed forever.
     
  17. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf
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    Thank God for good and honest witnesses.
    There's so many turds out there it's not even funny.
    Hopefully he's insured and barring that, you have non-insured motorist coverage.. you'd still have to somehow get the deductible from such a cretin though.
     
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  18. forefathersrback

    forefathersrback
    Central Oregon
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    40 Calruler~ After reading your thread and the replies that you received, which were excellent I might add. Looks like you did the right thing by being prepared and ready to protect your children.
     
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  19. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim
    Salmon,Idaho
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    Yes,to answer your question
    Not that you wouldn't have been justified,just that you would have scared the beejeezuz out of everyone around the accident.Then they may have made you out as the bad guy.
    Great call on your part.
    I don't know what's the problem.I drove past a guy that was setting on the yellow line to turn into Safeway and he accused ME of almost hitting him. It was a 25mph road and I was turning so speeds were about 5=6mph anyway.
     
  20. Mikej

    Mikej
    Portland
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    What a horrible feeling....Being shook from a head on impact, kids injured/crying in the car. What a nightmare!

    I'm wondering, how the law would look upon using a gun to defeat a fist? I'm not laying any judgement here, but for me I would think ANYTHING would be better than pulling a trigger. If the guy had thrown a punch and you pulled the trigger you may end up in a legal hell, with no written "Stand Your Ground" type law in Oregon. Even if you came out on top it could ruin a year or more of your life, and ruin you financially.

    Mike
     

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