National Why Are The Antis Winning? Can We Turn It Around, If So How?

[Xaevian]

Do they have greater determination? Do they have deeper pockets? Are they better collaborators? Are they better marketers of ideas? Are they better cheaters than us? Do they have a better ability to turn peoples emotions into support for their cause? Maybe they are better organizers? Are they more better at attracting youth to support their cause? Are they more successful at utilizing mainstream media to gain support for thier cause? Are their supporters more devoted to their cause? Are their arguments more persuasive to the citizens? Do they have great organizational structures with less infighting and competing than 2A supporting organzitions?

All of this. As for intellectually superior, they just think they are, and prove it with phrases like "reasonable" and "common sense", implying those that disagree are unreasonable and lack common sense.

As a long time 2A activist, I have seen it 1st hand. The vast majority of supposedly avid gun enthusiasts do nothing but bish about it. Then there are some that think sending some dollars to a few orgs is enough. And a small amount that actually write to their reps, but usually if someone else gives out a template to do so.

Yeah, I'm gonna get flamed for this from the majority here, but they are some of whom I'm talking about.

When our opponents show up in matching tshirts or wearing a specific color to identify themselves, hand out talking points, pre made signs, food, and water to their participants, have check ins, professional websites, and a media arm, that should tell you a lot. If you've ever been to one of these events, you'd know what I'm talking about. I have -many times, so I know how few WA "2A supporters" actually show up. That is very demoralizing.

Maybe it's different in OR, but I highly doubt it.

You get out what you put in. Don't put any effort in, don't come crying online for getting nothing. If our founding fathers did that, we'd be celebrating the queen's jubilee. Apathy is pur worst enemy.

 

[arakboss]

I understand the ostrich mentality that is well represented here but no matter how much you think ignoring the restrictions will make them go away, it won't work. Are the bump stock manufactures still running full production? Are full auto firearms produced and sold to every Joe who wants one? Did the FFL scheme evaporate so we can privately transfer all firearms across state lines as we please? Truth is, even if you choose to ignore the firearm restrictions they will still exist.

Maybe we have different visions of what winning looks like. Winning to me means the 2A is absolute, no challengers will bother to impede it as it will be the undisputed law of the land. We are a long ways from getting back to that day and with the direction we are heading in, that day may never come.

 

[Paolung]

There is always one reason we lose, voting. Yes there is some cheating, always has been, always will be. MANY gun owners love to tell anyone who will listen that voting does nothing. Great, don't vote and this will get better how?
Every election a LOT of gun owners go this way. Don't vote or throw vote away as no one is "good enough". Another problem is gun owners who are always in on compromise. It always only goes one way, we lose. When this latest mag ban passed I mentioned it to a lot of shooters at work. NONE of then knew what I was talking about. Had no idea it was going on. Tell me again the problem is the left?

The biggest problem is the liberal/left. What, you think if the whole country were solid red, we would be losing? 2A wouldn't even be up for a vote, in any way, shape or form.

The liberal/left are the ones attacking.

Now, you can say that the problems are also compounded by the complacency and ignorance on the part of gun owners, and I would agree with that. But yes, I'm convinced that the liberal/left is the source of it.

 

[Will_White]

Awwwww, had it with the cartoon...
" proposing things that could work or creating actual compromise "
Just say NO, and stick to it.
sigh...gun people are wimpy.
Joe

Proposing things that could work, like funding mental health services instead of cutting it, or letting teachers that wanted to carry do so.

Actual compromises like in 68 when they wanted BGCs for everything saying ok, but since everything gets a BGC now we don't need the NFA anymore to mandate BGCs on MGs, SBRs, etc.

 

[Paolung]

All of this. As for intellectually superior, they just think they are, and prove it with phrases like "reasonable" and "common sense", implying those that disagree are unreasonable and lack common sense.

As a long time 2A activist, I have seen it 1st hand. The vast majority of supposedly avid gun enthusiasts do nothing but bish about it. Then there are some that think sending some dollars to a few orgs is enough. And a small amount that actually write to their reps, but usually if someone else gives out a template to do so.

Yeah, I'm gonna get flamed for this from the majority here, but they are some of whom I'm talking about.

When our opponents show up in matching tshirts or wearing a specific color to identify themselves, hand out talking points, pre made signs, food, and water to their participants, have check ins, professional websites, and a media arm, that should tell you a lot. If you've ever been to one of these events, you'd know what I'm talking about. I have -many times, so I know how few WA "2A supporters" actually show up. That is very demoralizing.

Maybe it's different in OR, but I highly doubt it.

You get out what you put in. Don't put any effort in, don't come crying online for getting nothing. If our founding fathers did that, we'd be celebrating the queen's jubilee. Apathy is pur worst enemy.

The unfortunate reality is that the liberal/left are naturally better at organizing, especially politically. I suspect part of it is the anti-authoritarian bent of some of us gun loving types, but it is what it is - we have to actively work harder at it.

 

[arakboss]

The biggest problem is the liberal/left. What, you think if the whole country were solid red, we would be losing? 2A wouldn't even be up for a vote, in any way, shape or form.

The liberal/left are the ones attacking.

Now, you can say that the problems are also compounded by the complacency and ignorance on the part of gun owners, and I would agree with that. But yes, I I'm convinced that the liberal/left is the source of it.

I mostly agree except that it is spreading to all parties. If you look at polls on gun control, you will see some conservative types support the restrictions too.

 

[Paolung]

I mostly agree except that it is spreading to all parties. If you look at polls on gun control, you will see some conservative types support the restrictions too.

I suspect that this is more a function of pragmatism (if I agree to this, they'll let me keep the other stuff) more than actual agreement, but I'm willing to reluctantly admit that some of the Fudds out there actually think restrictions both will help and are still aligned with 2A (and, bless their hearts - they probably honestly believe that, too). The ones who are consciously willing to give up their 2A rights with both eyes wide open are the ones I have no mercy for - as far as I'm concerned, they're a lost cause in almost every case.

 

[Alexx1401]

The biggest problem is the liberal/left. What, you think if the whole country were solid red, we would be losing? 2A wouldn't even be up for a vote, in any way, shape or form.

There has ALWAYS been an "other side". History is no longer taught sadly. A HELL OF LOT of people did NOT want to break with England. Every time some new gun law goes in we for years hear gun owners come to the net to scream they "just found out" about it. This is not the lefts fault.

 

[Paolung]

There has ALWAYS been an "other side". History is no longer taught sadly. A HELL OF LOT of people did NOT want to break with England. Every time some new gun law goes in we for years hear gun owners come to the net to scream they "just found out" about it. This is not the lefts fault.

Right. That's the "complacency and ignorance on the part of gun owners" I was talking about. That's our fault, and our fault alone (with the caveat that there's a lot of misinformation out there and it's sometimes difficult to know if stories are accurate these days).

My point about the liberal/left being the main issue is that they're the ones leading the fight to strip 2A. It's not the right protesting and screaming for more gun control and laws.

The liberal/left are the ones on the attack. It's just that some of us aren't very good at defending and that takes its toll too

 

[ma96782]

Well......when the Govt. can get away with having a Ministry of Truth.

You know "We the People" are sort of DOOMED.

Aloha, Mark

 

[ZA_Survivalist]

The only thing I see them winning is the age raising. Its tricked a lot of of union "I hunt" FUDD types along with non gun guy type people into thinking this is reasonable.. not seeing that this is yet another chipping away at 2A rights.

They WANT and NEED death. So of course they'll blame conservatives for not passing an egregious, over-reaching banning bill.. because they need that "well we tried" fodder for the next election cycle and shooting. They propose something crazy and impractical only to turn around and say they tried to get things done but it was those conservative rascals that prevented it.
They claim they want a ban, but they don't. They want little restrictions here and there but just enough to still have violent crime take place as its a hot selling point during election cycles. Just like they claim they want equity and equality.. they dont. They need the poor class to rule over otherwise they have no power.

Age raising is the easiest thing to get away with. However we should be fighting to raise the voter, tobacco purchase and military eligibility age if this is the case. If a "child" at 18 can pick up a rifle and die for their country, they have the right to buy a rifle as a civilian at 18. Otherwise, raise the age for everything.. but they'll never do that.. mostly because they take advantage of the young clueless 18yo minds that have yet to pay taxes or go out in the real world and see how things work.

Lastly, they have complete control of the media, all forms of media. They forcefully inject false information or political opinions into movies all the time and Im sure they do it with shows as well, mainstream shows these days are just too woke for me to tolerate, its not even entertainment anymore.
But all of this comes down to social conditioning. They repeat things over and over, making them popular talking points with the low information types.. and those types gobble it up… and I think despite all of us gun folks voting.. we're outnumbered.

 

[arakboss]

The only thing I see them winning is the age raising. Its tricked a lot of of union "I hunt" FUDD types along with non gun guy type people into thinking this is reasonable.. not seeing that this is yet another chipping away at 2A rights.

They WANT and NEED death. So of course they'll blame conservatives for not passing an egregious, over-reaching banning bill.. because they need that "well we tried" fodder for the next election cycle and shooting. They propose something crazy and impractical only to turn around and say they tried to get things done but it was those conservative rascals that prevented it.
They claim they want a ban, but they don't. They want little restrictions here and there but just enough to still have violent crime take place as its a hot selling point during election cycles. Just like they claim they want equity and equality.. they dont. They need the poor class to rule over otherwise they have no power.

Age raising is the easiest thing to get away with. However we should be fighting to raise the voter, tobacco purchase and military eligibility age if this is the case. If a "child" at 18 can pick up a rifle and die for their country, they have the right to buy a rifle as a civilian at 18. Otherwise, raise the age for everything.. but they'll never do that.. mostly because they take advantage of the young clueless 18yo minds that have yet to pay taxes or go out in the real world and see how things work.

Lastly, they have complete control of the media, all forms of media. They forcefully inject false information or political opinions into movies all the time and Im sure they do it with shows as well, mainstream shows these days are just too woke for me to tolerate, its not even entertainment anymore.
But all of this comes down to social conditioning. They repeat things over and over, making them popular talking points with the low information types.. and those types gobble it up… and I think despite all of us gun folks voting.. we're outnumbered.

I agree media favors them but I don't understand why we can't control the narratives in that medium?

 

[red442joe]

Well......when the Govt. can get away with having a Ministry of Truth.

You know "We the People" are sort of DOOMED.

Aloha, Mark

In this country we don't have Ministries or Ministers.
Any one proposing such isn't just a commie, but a damn dirty rotten commie.
Remember what is the only good commie......

Joe

 

[VanceInWA]

I've said it before, but it bears repeating. The Second Amendment is a FREEDOM enshrined in our constitution. A threat to ANY constitutional FREEDOM is a threat to ALL constitutional freedoms. Loss of any FREEDOM in our constitution means tyranny in the United States. If and when that happens, our country will cease to exist as we've know it for 232 years, and as it was intended to exist by the Founding Fathers.

 

[brucekr]

I've been known to overgeneralize before, but I believe politically, the way it boils down, is that Democrats are more rooted in emotion while Republicans are more rooted in logic and there are varying degrees of such and exceptions to the rule. But, I think a democrat watches an event like Uvalde and wants to make policy changes based on the emotion. A republican wants a rational response that will be effective. And I'm not here to preach which one I think is more right. But the media feeds off emotion, because emotion leads to viewership, which leads to money and the ability to push a widely accepted narrative.
I think personally the only way to keep our rights is to educate people about guns. I work for a Santa Clara based company that definitely seems to lean leftward. Our VP had a Biden/Harris sign on his office wall when we had staff meetings.
So, I've taken it upon myself to invite employees to go shoot and not just ones that are aligned with my political affiliation. EVERY time I've taken someone new out, they talk about potential firearm ownership. Hell, my kids are almost all very left leaning, but they love to shoot and know that guns aren't the issue. But, after shootings like Uvalde, they waffle a little because they are extremely atrocious acts.
So, invite your neighbors, co-workers. Show them what responsible gun ownership looks like. But this battle is spinning out of control the wrong way fast....

 

[VanceInWA]

brucekr: "I think a democrat watches an event like Uvalde and wants to make policy changes based on the emotion. A republican wants a rational response that will be effective." Yes, that's the heart of it. But the key is emotional manipulation. In other words, propaganda.

The goal of propaganda is emotional manipulation and we are ALL subject to it, not just Democrats. Madison Avenue is expert at this, using emotional manipulation (they hate to call it propaganda) to sell products. The goal of propaganda is to convert emotions into action, and we are seeing that in real time post-Uvalde. Successful conversion of emotions into action means a person becomes a tool of the propagandist. The big win is when the constant barrage of propaganda sinks into our subconscious where it becomes a belief and alters our values. That is where the danger lies.

Bruckekr says we need to do a better job at education, and I heartily agree, but we must recognize that propaganda is a back door tool. Our mind's back door is our emotions, and that is how propaganda easily slips in. Our back door is rarely (if ever) as well guarded as our front door, our intellect. We may think we are rational human beings, but in a contest between intellect and emotions, our emotions almost always win. And hate to say it, but even worse is the majority of Americans are too intellectually lazy to do what is necessary to successfuly counter emotional manipulation and propaganda. Not just the Second Amendment, but America as it has existed is in real danger.

 

[brucekr]

brucekr: "I think a democrat watches an event like Uvalde and wants to make policy changes based on the emotion. A republican wants a rational response that will be effective." Yes, that's the heart of it. But the key is emotional manipulation. In other words, propaganda.

The goal of propaganda is emotional manipulation and we are ALL subject to it, not just Democrats. Madison Avenue is expert at this, using emotional manipulation (they hate to call it propaganda) to sell products. The goal of propaganda is to convert emotions into action, and we are seeing that in real time post-Uvalde. Successful conversion of emotions into action means a person becomes a tool of the propagandist. The big win is when the constant barrage of propaganda sinks into our subconscious where it becomes a belief and alters our values. That is where the danger lies.

Bruckekr says we need to do a better job at education, and I heartily agree, but we must recognize that propaganda is a back door tool. Our mind's back door is our emotions, and that is how propaganda easily slips in. Our back door is rarely (if ever) as well guarded as our front door, our intellect. We may think we are rational human beings, but in a contest between intellect and emotions, our emotions almost always win. And hate to say it, but even worse is the majority of Americans are too intellectually lazy to do what is necessary to successfuly counter emotional manipulation and propaganda. Not just the Second Amendment, but America as it has existed is in real danger.

Damn, that was a good read. And I agree....

 

[gmerkt]

There is a bigger picture. It involves the concept of change vs. status quo. People are divided into two basic camps. One, where people are comfortable with things the way they are. The other consists of people who strive to improve, in their minds, the circumstances that control their lives. Those who seek change historically seem to be of a more driven character. Meaning, they agitate harder for their viewpoint. Which is consistent with the two basic mindsets. It's not just about guns, it's about human nature. Of course there are a great many nuances that influence this behavior.

 

[arakboss]

brucekr: "I think a democrat watches an event like Uvalde and wants to make policy changes based on the emotion. A republican wants a rational response that will be effective." Yes, that's the heart of it. But the key is emotional manipulation. In other words, propaganda.

The goal of propaganda is emotional manipulation and we are ALL subject to it, not just Democrats. Madison Avenue is expert at this, using emotional manipulation (they hate to call it propaganda) to sell products. The goal of propaganda is to convert emotions into action, and we are seeing that in real time post-Uvalde. Successful conversion of emotions into action means a person becomes a tool of the propagandist. The big win is when the constant barrage of propaganda sinks into our subconscious where it becomes a belief and alters our values. That is where the danger lies.

Bruckekr says we need to do a better job at education, and I heartily agree, but we must recognize that propaganda is a back door tool. Our mind's back door is our emotions, and that is how propaganda easily slips in. Our back door is rarely (if ever) as well guarded as our front door, our intellect. We may think we are rational human beings, but in a contest between intellect and emotions, our emotions almost always win. And hate to say it, but even worse is the majority of Americans are too intellectually lazy to do what is necessary to successfuly counter emotional manipulation and propaganda. Not just the Second Amendment, but America as it has existed is in real danger.

I sometmes question my lack of empathy for shooting victims, maybe this is my instinct to protect the minds back door?

 

[OldTengu]