What would you consider an accurate powder measurement?

[CLT65]

I don't have much to add to the conversation, other than it's nice to see someone taking an interest in the technical aspects of reloading when starting out.

Everyone I've ever helped get set up to reload just wanted to turn out cheap ammo. More than once they just gave up and wanted me to load for them (no thanks).

I suspect that a person's occupation (and therefore mindset) could have something to do with that. Those of us who live day to day focusing on technical details are likely to be more detail oriented in our hobbies.

 

[ddjchemist]

I will order that measuring

I don't have much to add to the conversation, other than it's nice to see someone taking an interest in the technical aspects of reloading when starting out.

Everyone I've ever helped get set up to reload just wanted to turn out cheap ammo. More than once they just gave up and wanted me to load for them (no thanks).

I suspect that a person's occupation (and therefore mindset) could have something to do with that. Those of us who live day to day focusing on technical details are likely to be more detail oriented in our hobbies.

My purpose of loading is not to save any money, but to be independent on ammo and make my shooting more accurate. Moreover, it will give me a hobby that I will love. I am not in a hurry to just load and shoot. I am a very visual guy, so I want to understand every step in reloading. I am spending hours reading and watching videos. The major problem for a new reloader is to filter bad advices from good ones. I will load my first live ammo tomorrow and shoot it this weekend. I will make a set of 60 rounds (5 x 12 power charges) of 30-06.

 

[baker3gun]

You're off to a good start. Nice thread.

Someone mentioned that brass grows the most at first firing and first sizing. That's been my experience too. "Young" brass requires more trimming; some calibers are worse than others; some brands grow more than others. "Old" brass - in my experience, requires much less trimming.

You mentioned that once fired brass would not fit your chamber until full-length sized. I presume that brass was fired from a different gun? If it's from the same gun, then something is off.

In case you didn't know (pun?): When fired, a case expands to the restriction dimension of the chamber to create a gas seal and then instantly shrinks back a hair as pressure drops. "Elastic."
One sign of overpressure is difficult extraction, where too much pressure has ballooned the brass so authoritatively that it doesn't shrink and is therefore difficult to drag out of the chamber.
In the context of this elasticity property, if you are using comparators on new brass after full-length sizing, you might see dimensions that are just a hair larger than expected. You might chalk this up to the elasticity of the new brass under the extreme pressure of the sizing die.

If you haven't already, learn about the effect of proper annealing.

MikeJ sounds unquestionably experienced. Personal preference comes into play. I prefer a light kiss with a Factory Crimp Die to "uniform" neck tension. I'm not the first person in this thread to mention a preference for that step. It is entirely possible that my ammo is more accurate than MikeJ's ammo if he doesn't use a crimp die in this fashion. As Mike knows already, it is also entirely possible that my ammo is not more accurate than his. It would take a lot of testing over a long period of time to demonstrate conclusively whether one step in a process consistently improved accuracy by enough to matter.

As I alluded to in an earlier post, my guess is that neither Mike nor I nor many other experienced loaders are concerned much whether a good load is consistently able to hold .5moa vs .6moa, because in truth you need a robot and a vise and repeatable conditions to prove it, and besides, .6moa is a rare and damn good load, good enough for everyone except benchrest champions. My actual benchmark is .7moa. That's my goal when I load match rifle ammo, and sometimes I settle for .8. I'm not a benchrest guy.

Directdrive - good advice there, read that again. Learn what a shiny circle above the belt implies. Don't make your brass do unnecessary work to fit your chamber. You just end up with less firings.

I like your plan for 5x12. If you want my opinion, 5x8 from the right starting point will show you plenty. Again, IMO, .2gr charge increments are elucidative.

Finally - adjusting COAL:
For starters, COAL refers to the overall length of a loaded cartridge, and determines how close your bullet is to the lands (and whether it fits in your mag).
It is not a parameter that references brass length or trim-to specs.
It's a seating depth parameter.
It varies by bullet ogive.
You can get a really good idea of distance to lands (D2L) by barely seating a bullet in a prepped empty unprimed brass and gently chambering and then gently extracting it. Do it with clean brass throats. Do it three times. Measure the COAL on all 3, and take the average. That COAL is the COAL for that brass and that bullet in that chamber which causes the bullet to be touching the lands. The Berger guys would tell you to turn your seater die in until your COAL is 80 thousands less than that benchmark value, meaning that the bullet is 80thou off the lands, or D2L = 0.080".
They would say: load a ladder there; if it doesn't shoot, then try again at 40 thousandths off the lands, and again at 120 thousandths off the lands. Then fine tune.
That's how benchrest guys from the Berger camp get started.

Under the same topic COAL:
One approach:
Determine a verifiable safe starting load and max charge for your cartridge, powder and bullet.
Then start at 0.75 up that charge curve. In my experience, that's always been right on a node.
Check for pressure signs always. Get a chrono. The $100 competition electronics work great.
If everything is hunky dory, and your 5th load on your ladder is nearly perfect, it's safe to adjust COAL up or down as much as 20 thousandths in either direction to see if that load gets even better. I usually work in .005" increments when tuning coal on a good load.
The change in seating depth won't dramatically change pressure to an unacceptable level because you're working in the 75% neighborhood. Moving the bullet in or out 20 thou won't get you close to 100% pressure.

However, if you are pushing the speed envelope, then Dr. Pepper makes a good point. You shouldn't take a max-pressure load and just stuff the bullet in another 20 thou.

That's my 2 cents.
I like that you test at 200 yards. It's a little more revealing.

Good thread.

 

[CLT65]

As I alluded to in an earlier post, my guess is that neither Mike nor I nor many other experienced loaders are concerned much whether a good load is consistently able to hold .5moa vs .6moa, because in truth you need a robot and a vise and repeatable conditions to prove it, and besides, .6moa is a rare and damn good load, good enough for everyone except benchrest champions. My actual benchmark is .7moa. That's my goal when I load match rifle ammo, and sometimes I settle for .8. I'm not a benchrest guy.

But, but, but, MY rifle will do 1/4 MOA "all day long", and "as long as I do my part".

Just kidding. I don't have a rifle (or the skill) to shoot consistently quarter-minute. I always get a kick out of reading threads where people say that they do.

Not that it can't be done, by the way, because it absolutely can. I just don't think it's anywhere near as common as you'd think from gun forum posts. Quarter-minute is world class, and takes some impressive equipment and skill, and lots of practice. You might find the rare off-the-shelf rifle that can do it. Half-minute rifles are much more common, and impressive on their own, and there's a HUGE difference between half and quarter minute. Back in the day, a hunting rifle was considered a real keeper if it could do 1 moa. I think inherently accurate rifles are more common nowadays, I assume due to better manufacturing tolerances.

 

[pharmseller]

I use the highly technical "Sharpie" method to determine maximum COAL. After running the seating die stem waaaay up, I seat a bullet (no powder or primer). Then I blacken the bullet with a Sharpie and chamber the cartridge. What I'm looking for is marks from the lands in the Sharpie ink. More specifically, I'm looking for square marks: I want the shoulder of the bullet to contact the lands the same depth that the lands are wide, hence a square mark in the Sharpie ink. That's my kiss length, where the bullet is just kissing the lands.

Given sufficient magazine length, this kiss length is where I start my seating depth test.

Most of the rifles I load for are Tikkas. They take the fun out of load development.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I use the highly technical "Sharpie" method to determine maximum COAL. After running the seating die stem waaaay up, I seat a bullet (no powder or primer). Then I blacken the bullet with a Sharpie and chamber the cartridge. What I'm looking for is marks from the lands in the Sharpie ink. More specifically, I'm looking for square marks: I want the shoulder of the bullet to contact the lands the same depth that the lands are wide, hence a square mark in the Sharpie ink. That's my kiss length, where the bullet is just kissing the lands.

Given sufficient magazine length, this kiss length is where I start my seating depth test.

Most of the rifles I load for are Tikkas. They take the fun out of load development.

But I have a fancy measuring stick and stuff. Come on, man!

 

[ddjchemist]

You're off to a good start. Nice thread.

Someone mentioned that brass grows the most at first firing and first sizing. That's been my experience too. "Young" brass requires more trimming; some calibers are worse than others; some brands grow more than others. "Old" brass - in my experience, requires much less trimming.

You mentioned that once fired brass would not fit your chamber until full-length sized. I presume that brass was fired from a different gun? If it's from the same gun, then something is off.

In case you didn't know (pun?): When fired, a case expands to the restriction dimension of the chamber to create a gas seal and then instantly shrinks back a hair as pressure drops. "Elastic."
One sign of overpressure is difficult extraction, where too much pressure has ballooned the brass so authoritatively that it doesn't shrink and is therefore difficult to drag out of the chamber.
In the context of this elasticity property, if you are using comparators on new brass after full-length sizing, you might see dimensions that are just a hair larger than expected. You might chalk this up to the elasticity of the new brass under the extreme pressure of the sizing die.

If you haven't already, learn about the effect of proper annealing.

MikeJ sounds unquestionably experienced. Personal preference comes into play. I prefer a light kiss with a Factory Crimp Die to "uniform" neck tension. I'm not the first person in this thread to mention a preference for that step. It is entirely possible that my ammo is more accurate than MikeJ's ammo if he doesn't use a crimp die in this fashion. As Mike knows already, it is also entirely possible that my ammo is not more accurate than his. It would take a lot of testing over a long period of time to demonstrate conclusively whether one step in a process consistently improved accuracy by enough to matter.

As I alluded to in an earlier post, my guess is that neither Mike nor I nor many other experienced loaders are concerned much whether a good load is consistently able to hold .5moa vs .6moa, because in truth you need a robot and a vise and repeatable conditions to prove it, and besides, .6moa is a rare and damn good load, good enough for everyone except benchrest champions. My actual benchmark is .7moa. That's my goal when I load match rifle ammo, and sometimes I settle for .8. I'm not a benchrest guy.

Directdrive - good advice there, read that again. Learn what a shiny circle above the belt implies. Don't make your brass do unnecessary work to fit your chamber. You just end up with less firings.

I like your plan for 5x12. If you want my opinion, 5x8 from the right starting point will show you plenty. Again, IMO, .2gr charge increments are elucidative.

Finally - adjusting COAL:
For starters, COAL refers to the overall length of a loaded cartridge, and determines how close your bullet is to the lands (and whether it fits in your mag).
It is not a parameter that references brass length or trim-to specs.
It's a seating depth parameter.
It varies by bullet ogive.
You can get a really good idea of distance to lands (D2L) by barely seating a bullet in a prepped empty unprimed brass and gently chambering and then gently extracting it. Do it with clean brass throats. Do it three times. Measure the COAL on all 3, and take the average. That COAL is the COAL for that brass and that bullet in that chamber which causes the bullet to be touching the lands. The Berger guys would tell you to turn your seater die in until your COAL is 80 thousands less than that benchmark value, meaning that the bullet is 80thou off the lands, or D2L = 0.080".
They would say: load a ladder there; if it doesn't shoot, then try again at 40 thousandths off the lands, and again at 120 thousandths off the lands. Then fine tune.
That's how benchrest guys from the Berger camp get started.

Under the same topic COAL:
One approach:
Determine a verifiable safe starting load and max charge for your cartridge, powder and bullet.
Then start at 0.75 up that charge curve. In my experience, that's always been right on a node.
Check for pressure signs always. Get a chrono. The $100 competition electronics work great.
If everything is hunky dory, and your 5th load on your ladder is nearly perfect, it's safe to adjust COAL up or down as much as 20 thousandths in either direction to see if that load gets even better. I usually work in .005" increments when tuning coal on a good load.
The change in seating depth won't dramatically change pressure to an unacceptable level because you're working in the 75% neighborhood. Moving the bullet in or out 20 thou won't get you close to 100% pressure.

However, if you are pushing the speed envelope, then Dr. Pepper makes a good point. You shouldn't take a max-pressure load and just stuff the bullet in another 20 thou.

That's my 2 cents.
I like that you test at 200 yards. It's a little more revealing.

Good thread.

Thank you very much for your input. Believe or not, I shot all 300 WM ammo in my Tikka T3X and the same brass won't fit back. It gets slightly jammed in the chamber. The rifle shoots great and I got no extraction issues. The rifle is only 2 months old, so I am thinking I might write an email to Tikka (Beretta) customer service and ask them about it. My other Tikka in 30-06 does not have this problem and fired brass easily fits back.
I will dedicate time to learn and do proper bullet seating measurement.

 

[baker3gun]

But, but, but, MY rifle will do 1/4 MOA "all day long", and "as long as I do my part".

Just kidding. I don't have a rifle (or the skill) to shoot consistently quarter-minute. I always get a kick out of reading threads where people say that they do.

Not that it can't be done, by the way, because it absolutely can. I just don't think it's anywhere near as common as you'd think from gun forum posts. Quarter-minute is world class, and takes some impressive equipment and skill, and lots of practice. You might find the rare off-the-shelf rifle that can do it. Half-minute rifles are much more common, and impressive on their own, and there's a HUGE difference between half and quarter minute. Back in the day, a hunting rifle was considered a real keeper if it could do 1 moa. I think inherently accurate rifles are more common nowadays, I assume due to better manufacturing tolerances.

Lot of truth here. Thanks.

It's good for new shooters (not chemist, just people in general) to know what to actually expect.

Everyone shoots a super tiny group somewhere sometimes. Only big fat barrels with crushingly precise loads and icy shooters do it consistently.

Doing it on demand it what makes a champion. Lots of prep and practice behind that goal.

What happens 95% of the time is this:
show up,
shoot match,
don't win,
don't hold a minute,
explain why (sun was in my eyes, barrel cold, barrel hot, barrel not broke in yet, ammo cold, ammo hot, shaky today, brought wrong ammo, new trigger, throat gone, new glasses, trying a new load, etc),
go home.

Ask me how I know.

La Grande is having a military match in June. Their flyer says "no sniveling" like ten times on one page.

I was thinking about going, but if they are serious about that sniveling thing, I'm not so sure.

I mean, if you have to just show up, do your best, and swallow it in silence, that's a lot different than being allowed to whine about the match setup or make excuses about your gear.

Hmm. Not sure....

 

[baker3gun]

...... Most of the rifles I load for are Tikkas. They take the fun out of load development.

Much truth here too, even some between the lines.

A good rifle will be consistent and generous.

You might find 8 accuracy nodes within a range of 3gr of powder, because the rifle will shoot any decent load more consistently than you can.

That can lead you to questioning whether all the incremental work necessary to achieve .5moa is worth the slight improvement over quick and easy .9moa.

Somebody already used the, "you're overthinking this" line in this thread. That's what they were talking about.

It's not very hard to make really good ammo, but it can be quite a challenge to make and put to effective use really great ammo.

PS:
shut up pharm, nobody wants to hear about your damn quality rifles.

 

[oremike]

A long these lines, I'm a competitive shooter. That doesn't mean I win every match I shoot in. All that it means is I shoot matches and try to do my best. I tend to be in the upper 10 to 20% and win an event once in a while, but I'm not going to the Olympics. So what I'm saying is no matter how good my rifle and ammo are I'm only as good as myself.

 

[baker3gun]

Thank you very much for your input. Believe or not, I shot all 300 WM ammo in my Tikka T3X and the same brass won't fit back. It gets slightly jammed in the chamber. The rifle shoots great and I got no extraction issues. The rifle is only 2 months old, so I am thinking I might write an email to Tikka (Beretta) customer service and ask them about it. My other Tikka in 30-06 does not have this problem and fired brass easily fits back.
I will dedicate time to learn and do proper bullet seating measurement.

You're welcome.

You seem to be off to a good start.

No replacement for experience. Load some and shoot them. It will really come together after a while.

About your fired brass that won't chamber. I don't have much to say about that. It seems odd to me.
There are people on this board who have seen and know a lot more than me, so likely someone else will chime in.

 

[pharmseller]

Much truth here too, even some between the lines.

A good rifle will be consistent and generous.

You might find 8 accuracy nodes within a range of 3gr of powder, because the rifle will shoot any decent load more consistently than you can.

That can lead you to questioning whether all the incremental work necessary to achieve .5moa is worth the slight improvement over quick and easy .9moa.

Somebody already used the, "you're overthinking this" line in this thread. That's what they were talking about.

It's not very hard to make really good ammo, but it can be quite a challenge to make and put to effective use really great ammo.

PS:
shut up pharm, nobody wants to hear about your damn quality rifles.

My best shooting Tikka I bought used. True story, I used to throw clay pigeons on the berm at the 200 yard line. I'd shoot the clays, then shoot the shards. My brother went with me one time, he had a ball shooting shards the size of a quarter at 200 yards. When we finished he asked where he could buy a rifle like mine.

It came back to bite me year before last. He won the dollar for longest first-shot kill on a sage rat. Six hundred and eleven yards. Tikkas, of course.

 

[pharmseller]

Kilt a mulie buck at 541 yards a few years ago, 7mm-08 and 140 gr Partition handloads. Maybe that one was a Tikka, too.

 

[ddjchemist]

My best rifle I purchased used just recently. It is Tikka M658 (one of the earliest Tikkas) and so far any factory ammo I shot with it was accurate. I am sure that with good reloading I can bring its accuracy to 1/2 MOAs. My other Tikka T3X 300 Win Mag is very accurate, but only with up to 190rg bullets. I tried 210gr loads and could not make better than 2 MOAs. With 190 and lower grain, I can easily get 0.8 MOAs. I won't even try heavy loads on this rifle. It is 1:11 twist, so it probably can't stabilize well very heavy loads. I got 180gr bullets for it. For now, I will load 168 Sierra Match-King BTHP for 30-06 and 300 win mag rifles, and 180 gr BTGS for Tikka 300 Win Mag. I also shoot Yugo M48 Mauser, but for now I won't reload for it. I was able to buy 1,000 rounds of M75 sniper ammo for it, and I doubt one can get better reloads than this ammo. The only issue with this Mauser I got is I can shoot it only up to 100 yards with iron sights as I am near sighted and even with glasses anything over 100 yards is fuzzy to my eyes. I tried a scout scope on it, but those bases that replace rear iron sight can't hold zero for more than 20-30 shots. When barrel gets super hot it expends and the base starts wobbling. I tried two sifferent brads and both performed the same. Every 20-30 shots I had to tighten the base and re-zero. I just gave up on them. I might get a peep rear sight. I am sure that can help, but only up to 100 yards.

 

[DirectDrive]

so I am thinking I might write an email to Tikka (Beretta) customer service and ask them about it.

They may not be sympathetic to an alchemy-based line of questioning.
Craft your question(s) carefully.


IOW, gun manufacturers want you to be using factory ammo.
So there's that.

 

[pharmseller]

If you can find some .308 caliber 180 grain Nosler AccuBonds for your 300 Win Mag you'll be set.



P

 

[pharmseller]

Do you have a runout gauge? Straight ammo makes more difference than precise powder loading or neck tension, combined.



P

 

[tac]

I got a pharmaceutical scale with 0.0001g accuracy and for now I am using that one. I am on my way to get primers (Federal 210) and I am ready for my first 30-06 loads. I will load some tomorrow or Friday and shoot them over this weekend.

Still using a gram scale?

For goodness sake get a scale that reads in the GRAINS that the rest of us use.

Next thing you'll be weighing the primers.

 

[ddjchemist]

Do you have a runout gauge? Straight ammo makes more difference than precise powder loading or neck tension, combined.



P

Is runout gauge is concentricity gauge? If so, I do not have one. At the moment I am wrapping up loading 60 rounds of 30-06 with the tools I have and will see how that goes. If I am happy with the results, I will stick to what I have. If not, I might also add a concentricity gauge. My first step now is to determine the best powder charge (IMR-4064) with 168gr BTHP Sierra MatchKing bullets. I am following Lymans and Hornady reloading manuals and Hornady manual has AOL of cartridge for that bullet 3.240" and the other manual has it at 3.300". These bullet seatings are for now my starting points, and after I determine the optimum power charge for these seatings, I will then go to optimize bullet seating for my particular Tikka M658 rifle. Reloading has multiple variables and my approach is to change one variable a time and keep the others fixed. I have a lot of time for it and I can afford to "waste" some money. I do not call it "waste", but learning investment. Safety is right now my focus number 1, and then comes everything else. So far, all my resized 30-06 cases are within SAAMI specs. I primed the cases last night (will post pictures) using RCBS hand priming tool. Primer seatings look all good to my eye, but I will post some images, so more experienced reloader can give me an input. The hand priming tool worked great and was quick and easy to use, and the primer seating looks very consistent.

 

[ddjchemist]

Here are my first cartridges ready to shoot. Unfortunately, after loading only 3 cartridges, I have to stop. I busted my electronic balance (dropped it on the floor and now it is not working). I am right now looking if any stores in the area have one. If not, will look to order one ASAP.
I am using old RCBS JR2 press and RCBS hand priming tool. So far, they seem to do a good job. I will shoot at least 3 of these cartridges later today (I am heading to the range around 4pm) and compare them to factory loads that shoot accurate in my rifle. The 3 live reloaded cases have 49.5gr IMR-4064 powder and Sierra Match-King 168gr bullets. According to Lyman's manual, the powder charge for this combo is 45.0gr min to 50.0 gr max. All 3 cartridges have the exact donor brass (Federal from a same factory ammo box) and the exact neck OD of .333. The bullets are all tight.