What would you consider an accurate powder measurement?

[Mikej]

You're over thinking this. At least until you get all shooting 600 yards at a 6" steel target.

Is this new, once fired brass your sizing?
A headspace gauge is what measures the length of your chamber. Maybe you mean "Case Gauge"?
My Lyman book shows .30-06 brass trim-to-length at 2.484" with a max of 2.494" showing in the Speer 49.
Brass should be trimmed uniform, that means the brass can be anywhere from 2.484"-2.494" as long as it's the same length you're golden.
Neck OD? If you have a quality die, the neck is set where it needs to be. Reference, 600+ yard shooting.

 

[ddjchemist]

You're over thinking this. At least until you get all shooting 600 yards at a 6" steel target.

Is this new, once fired brass your sizing?
A headspace gauge is what measures the length of your chamber. Maybe you mean "Case Gauge"?
My Lyman book shows .30-06 brass trim-to-length at 2.484" with a max of 2.494" showing in the Speer 49.
Brass should be trimmed uniform, that means the brass can be anywhere from 2.484"-2.494" as long as it's the same length you're golden.
Neck OD? If you have a quality die, the neck is set where it needs to be. Reference, 600+ yard shooting.

Thanks for your input. Neck OD some call bullet tension and one can use neck bushing die to just change that. I am resizing whole cartridge. I use Lyman's Manual (latest 50th edition) and I am aware of all min/max for 30-06. What I am not sure is how consistent is my sizing. That is why I gave the measurements. Pretty much all my neck tensions from the same brass are within 0.002in and case length within 0.003in variations. Is that fine?

 

[Mikej]

Pretty much all my neck tensions from the same brass are within 0.002in and case length within 0.003in variations. Is that fine?

Your die sizes the neck smaller than it's suppose to be on the down stroke. One the up stroke the expander ball will size the neck out for proper neck tension for the bullet. I never worried about it. If you were concerned about neck tension you could seat a bullet on an uncharged, unprimed case and see how hard you have to beat that kinetic bullet puller hammer to get it to come out. It might surprise you.

I decide where I want my brass length to be within the .010" range and then trim all cases as close to that as I can. Ferinstance...the book shows .30-06 trim to minimum 2.484"/maximum 2.494" I just decided to make MY trim-to length 2.487". I see no reason to keep grinding to minimum as long as I'm within in spec.

 

[Dr Prepper]

I might buy a grain scale. However, I have an old electronic laboratory grade scale that can go down to 0.0001 g, so I might use it at the beginning. The one that I have is more accurate than anything I can find that measures in grain unit, of course unless I want to spend a lot of money.

what scale are you using? I recently bought a sartorius BP 310s.
They are a bit of a pain but you CAN program them to read in gn. Mine ls .001gm or +/- .02gn
I prefer the scientific method. And do WAY more than necessary for what im doing. (semi auto gas with range brass but i sort headstamps etc) sometimes you just gotta roll with what you have.
Good luck to you.

 

[Dr Prepper]

Thanks for your input. Neck OD some call bullet tension and one can use neck bushing die to just change that. I am resizing whole cartridge. I use Lyman's Manual (latest 50th edition) and I am aware of all min/max for 30-06. What I am not sure is how consistent is my sizing. That is why I gave the measurements. Pretty much all my neck tensions from the same brass are within 0.002in and case length within 0.003in variations. Is that fine?

I try and get my trim length to within a thou. A thou shouldn't be too heard to keep consistent. Trim length will also greatly affect neck tension. So it is important. Keep in mind anymore than .003 neck tension and you are sizing the neck WHILST seating the bullet and will decrease neck tension.. So try to stay around .003
The lee collet dies are fairly handy for this.
Also you can get a body die and then do the neck in a separate step.

 

[ddjchemist]

what scale are you using? I recently bought a sartorius BP 310s.
They are a bit of a pain but you CAN program them to read in gn. Mine ls .001gm or +/- .02gn
I prefer the scientific method. And do WAY more than necessary for what im doing. (semi auto gas with range brass but i sort headstamps etc) sometimes you just gotta roll with what you have.
Good luck to you.

I got a pharmaceutical scale with 0.0001g accuracy and for now I am using that one. I am on my way to get primers (Federal 210) and I am ready for my first 30-06 loads. I will load some tomorrow or Friday and shoot them over this weekend.

 

[ddjchemist]

Good news is that I got 1000 Federal 210 primers (for 30-06) and 1000 Federal 215 primers for 300 WM. bad news is that a set of RCBS 300 WM dies is not working properly. The full length die is not bumping shoulder back, so the resized cases are not is spec. I guess I will order a set of brand new dies from MidwayUS and will get better ones

 

[Dr Prepper]

Good news is that I got 1000 Federal 210 primers (for 30-06) and 1000 Federal 215 primers for 300 WM. bad news is that a set of RCBS 300 WM dies is not working properly. The full length die is not bumping shoulder back, so the resized cases are not is spec. I guess I will order a set of brand new dies from MidwayUS and will get better ones

Is it new brass? I think ive had this happen before on new brass. It barely moved or not at all. The body and neck sized though and head space was within spec.

Seeing how your a smart individual from what I've read, I Assume you did check the headspace to SAAMI and it is out of spec? Not JUST going by shoulder bump.

 

[ddjchemist]

Is it new brass? I think ive had this happen before on new brass. It barely moved or not at all. The body and neck sized though and head space was within spec.

Seeing how your a smart individual from what I've read, I Assume you did check the headspace to SAAMI and it is out of spec? Not JUST going by shoulder bump.

Thanks for the compliment. More than smart, I am very careful with what I am doing. Yes, these are new cases from a factory load that I purchased from MidwayUS and I sized 4 of them and checked them all using case headspace gauge. The case base is about 2/1000 over the max inside the gauge. I still have about 40 live factory cartridges and I also measured them in this gauge. Live ammo cases sit exactly between min and max line, while the cases that I sized sit 2/1000 over max line. I am right now sonicating the cases in RCBS case cleaning solution and I will see if that makes a difference. If not, I will order a new set of dies.

 

[Dr Prepper]

Thanks for the compliment. More than smart, I am very careful with what I am doing. Yes, these are new cases from a factory load that I purchased from MidwayUS and I sized 4 of them and checked them all using case headspace gauge. The case base is about 2/1000 over the max inside the gauge. I still have about 40 live factory cartridges and I also measured them in this gauge. Live ammo cases sit exactly between min and max line, while the cases that I sized sit 2/1000 over max line. I am right now sonicating the cases in RCBS case cleaning solution and I will see if that makes a difference. If not, I will order a new set of dies.

Interesting, I wonder if they are small base dies? Maybe they actually elongated the body. I would think it would still bump the shoulder properly.
Who makes the case gauge your using? I wonder if that case guage is the problem? I like the Sheridan ones with the slot so you can see exactly what's seated fully. Also measures loaded ammo.

I take your not measuring the base to shoulder datum point and just checking it with a chamber type case guage?

Also, if the factory round fits and you are just pulling the bullets you probably dont need to. And maybe shouldn't resize and just seat your new round in place of the old.
You can either use bullets of the same weight (or slightly less by -2gn NEVER heavier!) And seat them near the same depth AS THE BASE OF THE BULLET. Or you can pour out the powder and work up your own load starting 10% low and working up as usual.
Ill be doing this exact thing with my cheapo federal .224 valk and replacing the cheap low BC bullet with a slightly better one of same weight.

 

[ddjchemist]

I washed the case prior to sizing them and now they are within specs when it comes to headspace according to the case gauge. However, now I have another problem that I have no idea if that is normal for 300 WM ammo. All the 300 win mag cases that I am working on are 100% factory loads shot only once. However, they are now far too long after shooting them only once. According to the specs, cases for 300 WM should be 2.610"-2.620". I measured the length of live factory cases and they are all 2.610-2.612. However, after being shot once they are 2.624-2.626 before resizing and 2.628-2.631 after resizing. Is it normal that My Tikka T3X True Timber Strata UltraLite expends cases by 25/1000 inches? I shot 3 different factory loads (Federal, Herter's and Sig Sauer) and they all were expended this much. My rifle shoots great and is super accurate. This Sunday I got 1.2" group at 200 yards (0.6 MOA) with cheap Herter's ammo (my Tikka loves this cheap Herte's ammo). Recycling and feeding is very smooth. I am getting a little bit concerned about having headspace issue with the rifle.

 

[Dr Prepper]

I washed the case prior to sizing them and now they are within specs when it comes to headspace according to the case gauge. However, now I have another problem that I have no idea if that is normal for 300 WM ammo. All the 300 win mag cases that I am working on are 100% factory loads shot only once. However, they are now far too long after shooting them only once. According to the specs, cases for 300 WM should be 2.610"-2.620". I measured the length of live factory cases and they are all 2.610-2.612. However, after being shot once they are 2.624-2.626 before resizing and 2.628-2.631 after resizing. Is it normal that My Tikka T3X True Timber Strata UltraLite expends cases by 25/1000 inches? I shot 3 different factory loads (Federal, Herter's and Sig Sauer) and they all were expended this much. My rifle shoots great and is super accurate. This Sunday I got 1.2" group at 200 yards (0.6 MOA) with cheap Herter's ammo (my Tikka loves this cheap Herte's ammo). Recycling and feeding is very smooth. I am getting a little bit concerned about having headspace issue with the rifle.

I think i see whats going on. Your measuring the case OAL or over all length right? Looks like it by the #'s you gave.

You need to get a set of calipers (if not already) and a set of comparitor body and inserts. Particularly the .420 size (diameter) one.

You want to go by the baseline # in the attached pic. Which is measured on the chamfer datum of the bottleneck. Its stated as: .420(10.67)B. For the diameter. Follow that dimensional notation line down and below the case it says the length from base to the middle of the shoulder (not neck) is:
"2.2700 -.0070" thats in inches. (mm) in parenthesis..
This is the number you want. And the number of significance. Keep in mind 300wm is belted and i believe it is headspaced off that belt IIRC. So if someone mentions "headspace" referring to this measurement. They probably mean what im talking about (like a typical non belted magnum) but the true headspace is off the belt and is NOT adjustable from what i know.

I think your sizing process is working correctly, and your just simply measuring the wrong thing. Case mouth/neck does and WILL grow longer after you size it. You may need to trim this after sizing as well. There is also a trim tolerance. For optimal accuracy try and keep that as consistent as possible. But you can experiment with it later if you want.

Heres the SAAMI spec.
Upper is the CARTRIDGE
lower half is the CHAMBER

 

[Dr Prepper]

Heres the saami website for the four different bulletins on center fire rifle, pistol, shotgun, and rimfire.
You want at least the CFR one (center fire rifle) the downloads are free.
300wm is on pg. 105
Saami is the over all governing industry standard for chambers and loads. Your manual you are using may provide the dimensions as well. But these are the highest precedence authority to go by.

Keep in mind this gives both the cartridge and the reamer or chamber dimensions.

SAAMI Standards - SAAMI

Note: New & Revised Cartridge & Chamber Drawings not yet included in the standards can be found HERE. American National Standards Published by SAAMI The SAAMI Standards are published to provide safety, reliability, and interchangeability standards for commercial manufactures of firearms...

saami.org

Heres the specific link for the direct download for the .pdf if you want it.
Im always a little weary of clinking and downloading provided links.

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/ANSI-SAAMI-Z299.4-CFR-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

Lastly heres an idea of the comparitor to be used in conjunction with calipers. (I suggest digital for this task) this set does include the #420 insert you require.

Hornady Lock-N-Load Headspace Ga 5 Bushing Set Comparator

The Hornady Lock-N-Load Headspace Gauge is a great tool for increasing the accuracy of your loaded ammunition. The Headspace gauge measures from the...

www.midwayusa.com

hope these last two posts clear it up. I think your dies are most likely fine.

 

[DirectDrive]

This Sunday I got 1.2" group I am getting a little bit concerned about having headspace issue with the rifle.

300WM headspaces on the belt.
This is a very different animal in terms of headspace method as compared to your 30-06
The lengthened 300WM cases simply are showing you the actual length of the chamber.

I would not fight that or you will eventually have case stretching issues at the front of the belt.
Just make sure that your re-sized 300WM cases chamber well and if done correctly your 300WM cases will nest against the belt and the shoulder.

 

[pharmseller]

In my experience the most case expansion comes at the first firing, as the case expands to fill the dimensions of the chamber.

And keep in mind that the upstroke, when FL sizing, as the expander ball trues the neck dimension, pulls the brass of the neck forward, further lengthening the case.

I wonder if your 300 WM dies are set up correctly. Do you know an experienced handloader near you who could put an eyeball on your process?

 

[ddjchemist]

Thank you all so much for your valuable input. I do multiple measurements of each case.
1) I measure the live factory ammo: Total length, case length and neck OD and write that down
2) I measure spent case before any resizing (case length and neck OD)
3) I measure each resized case first using Hornady gauge to make sure that the case length from bolt face to datum line is correct (bolt face line should be between max-min dent on the gauge), and then I measure with stainless steel caliber the total case length and neck OD. My FL die extends the case for 0.0003-0.0004 inches. For example, unsized empty case (spent primer was removed before measurement) is 2.625 and the same sized case is 2.629. Thus, I think my die is working well (originally my RCBS FL die was not bumping shoulder enough to pass Hornady gauge test, but after I disassembled die and sonicated it in methanol for 10 mins and dried it, and after washing the cases prior to resizing the die is sizing well and each case passes Hornady gauge test).

The thing that surprised me is that my rifle extends the cases by 0.015 inches (sorry, in the previous post I wrote 25/1000 as I miscalculated) and thus I will need to trip my cases after every shot since they exceed the maximum length of 2.620 inches after being shot only once. One of you mentioned above that 300 WM cases expend the most when shot for the first time. I hope that will be the case and I won't have to trim my cases every cycle. Yesterday evening I purchased Federal 210 and 215 primers and today my RCBS hand-priming tool and 30-06/300WM RCBS shell holders for it are supposed to be delivered, so I will be able to load my first 30-06 live rounds tomorrow and shoot them this weekend. Since I do not have case trimmer, I will postpone loading 300 WM until I get a trimmer. I still need to order one. Luckily, all the 30-06 resized cases came out within the length specs and they passed case gauge test. I loaded a couple of dummy rounds (no primer and no powder) and tested them in my Tikka M658 and they perfectly fit. I am using Sierra MatchKing 168gr BTHP bullets and according to Hornady loading manual the OAL of each cartridge is recommended to 3.240 and according to Lymans manual it should be 3.300. I set the two dummy cartridges to 3.300 (I can always make them shorter), but I still need to decide what final OAL I will set my 30-06 cartridges. At this point I want to find the optimum powder charge (since I am a beginner, I will keep it on a safe side and make MAX loads 1gr less than manual specified MAX. e.g. if manual shows max 51gr, I will go with 50gr). When I figure out the best powder charge, I will go with changes in bullet sitting. I am still a little bit confused on how to measure bullet seating in my rifle, but I will learn that too when the time comes. For now it is important that I do not position bullets too close or too far from the rifling inlet (forgot the technical term for it), and if I follow manual specs that will be avoided.

 

[pharmseller]

If you neck size only, as long as the empty case chambers in your rifle, you won't need to trim near as much. FL resizing can really work the brass. Plus, you have greater potential for accuracy, since the case is a custom fit.

I don't care how long my cases are, as long as they fit the chamber in which they were fired.

Not only do I not care how long they are, I don't know, either.


P

 

[ddjchemist]

If you neck size only, as long as the empty case chambers in your rifle, you won't need to trim near as much. FL resizing can really work the brass. Plus, you have greater potential for accuracy, since the case is a custom fit.

I don't care how long my cases are, as long as they fit the chamber in which they were fired.

Not only do I not care how long they are, I don't know, either.


P

Problem is that my fired cases do not fit back into my Tikka T3X, so I do have to resize them. However, resized cases, although too long, they perfectly fit into the chamber.

 

[Dr Prepper]

(I can always make them shorter)

No not really. You CANNOT do this on a whim. You would somewhat have to work uo a new load, or at least dail it back say 5% (instead the traditional 10%)
You CANNOT seat a bullet deeper, this will increase pressure and waste all you time $ and hard work.

START by seating the bullet deeper, then you can always seat it longer without increasing pressure. (Pressure will only decrease because your adding more volume to the case interior.)

I am still a little bit confused on how to measure bullet seating in my rifle, but I will learn that too when the time comes.

That time is now... Trust me. Here again learning this NOW will save you time and $. And give you much better accuracy and more satisfaction sooner. Don't rush to wasting components and then later realize you have to start over.

If you neck size only, as long as the empty case chambers in your rifle, you won't need to trim near as much. FL resizing can really work the brass. Plus, you have greater potential for accuracy, since the case is a custom fit.

I don't care how long my cases are, as long as they fit the chamber in which they were fired.

Not only do I not care how long they are, I don't know, either.


P

Neck tension... I hear what you are saying. But measuring is so quick to do on cases, and if it changes it will affect the neck tension to a degree. But it obviously works to just load em luke you are doing if you don't mind slightly less accuracy.

 

[Dr Prepper]

that I do not position bullets too close or too far from the rifling inlet (forgot the technical term for it)

Throat is that term

Here is a video that may help by a champion target shooter.