What would you consider an accurate powder measurement?

[pharmseller]

Here's another:

Pressure Signs

www.shootersforum.com

 

[Dr Prepper]

You're almost right, but mostly wrong

How am i MOSTLY wrong?Extrapolate.. Prove it.

I know jamming into the lands 'spikes' pressures. I simply said seating increasingly deeper increases pressure. (No one i saw mentioned this until you brought up)
Your better off starting deep and seating longer as you test. And .04" IS MASSIVE four hundredths of an inch..
Its a simple truth.

And sorry but quite frankly i don't believe that source. I only take credible sources as good info. Nit just internet rumors, I have always heard consistent info from numerous very credible sources. All sources say seating deeper (or having less case capacity no matter how will increase pressure)
Also im not clicking on that article but he states in the synopsis "everything else was the same" i call bs. Hes not accounting for environmentals, temp, moisture, WHEN his load was developed, if the powder is temperature stable, barrel chamber temp. etc.

Im trying to save someone from bad info and potentially blowing thier face off.
Also the starting load was near max. That's from 3 reliable sources all stating near the same thing. Hes heading down the highway to the danger zone..

You welcome to think what you will. But id rather you point out facts in how im wrong specifically.

 

[Dr Prepper]

Here's another:

Pressure Signs

www.shootersforum.com

This looks more useful, and in agreement with what I've read and seen,
But is kinda besides any point i made. Which wasn't pressure SIGNS but talking about what causes it.
But .. I haven't read the whole thing yet. Maybe ill have time later.
Thanks.

 

[pharmseller]

There's well, and there's better, and sometimes there's holy shìt!



Recall my brother's recent seating depth test, Tikka T3 Superlite 7mm-08. Nothing wrong with upper right or lower left, lots of shooter would be happy with MOA or a hair under, but lower right, then superimpose the center bullseye, and you get close to half-MOA for 5 shots. And no disrespect to Dr. Prepper, but I've completed the same procedure for at least 15 Tikkas that I can readily remember, with no adverse events.

Whatever you decide, be as consistent as possible. Consistency leads to better ammunition. I follow a precise process for each rifle, and it works for me. That doesn't mean it's right for you.



P

 

[Dr Prepper]

I ignore that. A lot of reloader ignore that. Google it, here's a sample:

best signs of "overpressure"

I'm new to this forum so I hope I'm allowed a few stupid questions till I get on top of things. Here's one, candidate: I've read some strategies for optimizing powder loads for a given rifle/bullet/powder combination. I'm reasonably sure that how to tell if the load is lighter than it should...

www.thehighroad.org

P

I somewhat ignore 'flattened' primers Too "Perfectly flat primers" depends on the velocity.. I would rather see case thrust on the bolt face sign or something else. Primer cratering, flow etc.
But its a sign something MAY be going on like land engagement etc. On some guns like particularly the 6.5cm 6cm etc are kinda notorious for even primer cratering. So best to research.

 

[Dr Prepper]

There's well, and there's better, and sometimes there's holy shìt!

View attachment 896175

Recall my brother's recent seating depth test, Tikka T3 Superlite 7mm-08. Nothing wrong with upper right or lower left, lots of shooter would be happy with MOA or a hair under, but lower right, then superimpose the center bullseye, and you get close to half-MOA for 5 shots. And no disrespect to Dr. Prepper, but I've completed the same procedure for at least 15 Tikkas that I can readily remember, with no adverse events.

Whatever you decide, be as consistent as possible. Consistency leads to better ammunition. I follow a precise process for each rifle, and it works for me. That doesn't mean it's right for you.



P

None taken, all im saying is for some operations there IS a correct order to properly complete them in. It might make a small difference it might make a moderate difference or be slightly more safe process. But its the correct process.

That's all im saying.

 

[pharmseller]

How am i MOSTLY wrong?Extrapolate.. Prove it.

I know jamming into the lands 'spikes' pressures. I simply said seating increasingly deeper increases pressure. (No one i saw mentioned this until you brought up)
Your better off starting deep and seating longer as you test. And .04" IS MASSIVE four hundredths of an inch..
Its a simple truth.

And sorry but quite frankly i don't believe that source. I only take credible sources as good info. Nit just internet rumors, I have always heard consistent info from numerous very credible sources. All sources say seating deeper (or having less case capacity no matter how will increase pressure)
Also im not clicking on that article but he states in the synopsis "everything else was the same" i call bs. Hes not accounting for environmentals, temp, moisture, WHEN his load was developed, if the powder is temperature stable, barrel chamber temp. etc.

Im trying to save someone from bad info and potentially blowing thier face off.
Also the starting load was near max. That's from 3 reliable sources all stating near the same thing. Hes heading down the highway to the danger zone..

You welcome to think what you will. But id rather you point out facts in how im wrong specifically.

I don't need to prove it, not sure I could, anyway, since I lack pressure testing equipment.

I'm Pharmseller on 24hrcampfire too. If you read the 7th response, it's from John Barsness, the gun writer (and really good guy).

Denton also has a good explanation, but Vic in VA has the money shot response. Click on the link and read it, you might learn something.





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[pharmseller]

And most of the time I start at max loads, but that's just me.

Safe in my rifles, start low and work up, but I never have.

I load to max, shoot over a chronograph to make sure I'm not way out of line with the reloading data I'm looking at, then depth test.

And you do realize that Berger Bullets recommends the 0.04" increments, yes? That's not coming from me, that's coming from a premier bullet/ammo manufacturer.

 

[Dr Prepper]

I don't need to prove it, not sure I could, anyway, since I lack pressure testing equipment.

I'm Pharmseller on 24hrcampfire too. If you read the 7th response, it's from John Barsness, the gun writer (and really good guy).

Denton also has a good explanation, but Vic in VA has the money shot response. Click on the link and read it, you might learn something.





P

Thanks for extrapolating.
Not being dismissive but ive never shot fancy bolt actions, but even with my cheap rack grade AR barrels ALL of them are shooting under MOA so far. So i gotta be doing something right some with range brass. As cheap as can be. I do spend on tools and equip. But not guns and components.
I still have several brand new rigs to test and make loads for so who knows. Maybe all those will stink.

Im always looking to learn. So i thank you. Again im not being dismissive but even SOME gun writers etc are behind the 8 ball. Check out TiborasaurusRex on YT hes thorough and arguably one of the best there is. Even the "pros" are flabbergasted by his knowledge. The Applied ballistics guy is good to (forget his name )
*Brian Litz

I won't post my targets again on this thread but you can go back and see i have many 5 shot smallish groups (with data.) And these are begining loads not even refined.
Also worth noting im shooting for small groups not max pressure. That's why i shoot .3gn ladders looking for nodes over a large spread. All basic stuff.

 

[Dr Prepper]

And you do realize that Berger Bullets recommends the 0.04"

No i didn't, Are you sure it wasn't .004"? I only set back my bullets a MAX of .030" from "jam" any way.
So it would be pointless to only try Two completely random depths.. I wouldn't do that. Like throwing a handful of darts at the board hoping for a bullseye.

Also worth noting generally the better your barrel, typically the less all the variances matter. I dont use those barrels lol!

 

[Dr Prepper]

No i didn't, Are you sure it wasn't .004"? I only set back my bullets a MAX of .030" from "jam" any way.
So it would be pointless to only try Two completely random depths.. I wouldn't do that. Like throwing a handful of darts at the board hoping for a bullseye.

Also worth noting generally the better your barrel, typically the less all the variances matter. I dont use those barrels lol!

Well the target bullets. The cheapo 55gr plinker stuff wont even seat out far enough to even come close. Those have a "bit" of jump obviously.

 

[pharmseller]

Thanks for extrapolating.
Not being dismissive but ive never shot fancy bolt actions, but even with my cheap rack grade AR barrels ALL of them are shooting under MOA so far. So i gotta be doing something right some with range brass. As cheap as can be. I do spend on tools and equip. But not guns and components.
I still have several brand new rigs to test and make loads for so who knows. Maybe all those will stink.

Im always looking to learn. So i thank you. Again im not being dismissive but even SOME gun writers etc are behind the 8 ball. Check out TiborasaurusRex on YT hes thorough and arguably one of the best there is. Even the "pros" are flabbergasted by his knowledge. The Applied ballistics guy is good to (forget his name )

I won't post my targets again on this thread but you can go back and see i have many 5 shot smallish groups (with data.) And these are begining loads not even refined.
Also worth noting im shooting for small groups not max pressure. That's why i shoot .3gn ladders looking for nodes over a large spread. All basic stuff.

You'll notice the difference between us is that I'm not telling anyone your advice is bad. Everyone does things a different way, and no "one way" is the only way. I only responded when you mistakenly said my info was bad and could potentially lead to a face-blowing-off incident. It won't, and your method won't either, so we're on the same side.

And boy howdy, Tikkas are far from fancy. When I started buying them they were budget rifles. I got my first one, a stainless 30-06, for $450. You can still find used ones for under five bills. Target guns they ain't. But man, do they shoot.



P

 

[pharmseller]

No i didn't, Are you sure it wasn't .004"? I only set back my bullets a MAX of .030" from "jam" any way.
So it would be pointless to only try Two completely random depths.. I wouldn't do that. Like throwing a handful of darts at the board hoping for a bullseye.

Also worth noting generally the better your barrel, typically the less all the variances matter. I dont use those barrels lol!

Crikies, brother, go back to post #217, click a link, and learn something.

Yes, I'm sure it wasn't .004".

Quit assuming without investigating.




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[Dr Prepper]

You'll notice the difference between us is that I'm not telling anyone your advice is bad. Everyone does things a different way, and no "one way" is the only way. I only responded when you mistakenly said my info was bad and could potentially lead to a face-blowing-off incident. It won't, and your method won't either, so we're on the same side.

And boy howdy, Tikkas are far from fancy. When I started buying them they were budget rifles. I got my first one, a stainless 30-06, for $450. You can still find used ones for under five bills. Target guns they ain't. But man, do they shoot.



P

Well there is a correct way to load..
What minutiae and equipment you use to accomplish that is to each their own.
But when it comes down to it most everyone is pretty much following the same (proper) steps.

I HAVE already had my face "blown off" once when i was younger. Don't care to repeat it. Even "professionals" make mistakes. Usually cutting corners is the fastest way to accomplish that.

Anyway thanks for the debate.. Sorry to derail the thread.

 

[pharmseller]

Well there is a correct way to load..
What minutiae and equipment you use to accomplish that is to each their own.
But when it comes down to it most everyone is pretty much following the same (proper) steps.

I HAVE already had my face "blown off" once when i was younger. Don't care to repeat it. Even "professionals" make mistakes. Usually cutting corners is the fastest way to accomplish that.

Anyway thanks for the debate.. Sorry to derail the thread.

You do you, brother. Be happy and safe.

 

[Dr Prepper]

Im sorry.. But i gotta say im supposed to take a article seriously, that states:

"Trying to find the COAL that puts you in the sweet spot by moving .002 to .010 will take so long the barrel may be worn out by the time you sort it out if you don't give up first. Since the sweet spot is .030 to .040 wide we recommend that you conduct the following test to find your rifles VLD sweet spot."

That's straight from the article..
Kinda Sounds like they agree with me, ".002" - .010"" your node could be further away.. But most likely youll find one withing the first .030" and you want as little jump as possible and like i stated before chase the lands as they wear (if you get that much use)
As I stated before. Find your jam first subtract .030" then do your ladder tests. And find a powder node that's accurate and decent velocity (you'll probably find a few) and then extend the bullet TOWARD the throat every .003". @ .003" increments it will be 11 incremental increases in length... So at 3 rounds per thats 33 shots. At 5 which id do thats 55 shots!
And the 'experts' are saying your barrel will be worn out by the time this happens!!! (their method as stated is roughly 75rnds w/5 shot strings)
Oh man that's a good one!! I need to find out who berger buys their barrels from! They are softer than butter apparently.

Idk to me time is money i don't get to go to the range that often so it would be FAR more expensive to do that back and forth rather than just do it my way. You could go .004 or .005" and then go up or down .002" but again that would require an additional trip. Id rather just get it over with withing 75 shots.

There's MANY competition shooters shooting ELR that have barrels that erode WAY faster shooting MUCH higher vel. Than i am who do it the way im describing and even when they replace thier barrels every 1500-3000 rounds depending they still do it this way or fairly close. They may do .004 or .005 thou at first. Or maybe seat back further to start but they don't want to waste time going back and forth loading test ammo. They load a series of test ammo and get it done. Go home and make all their ammo to that spec.

Another thing is when you read that article its like they kept saying: our customer kept reporting good accuracy etc etc.
Like Berger themselves couldn't afford to load up 50-100 of their own bullets and check the seating depths?

This doesn't pass the smell test at all. There was many problems with that article noticed. Brian Litz is a reputable source, i know he was Berger head ballistician at one point and left a while ago. And Berger is a leading mfgr. But it just doesn't line up.
I guess ill read the other two articles anyway.

I also think its unwise to recommend you just start loading to Max load right off the bat. Most people don't even share thier loads out of caution, I've never met or heard ANYONE ever just recommend loading to max right off the bat. Even between lot # of the same powder you should load down slightly.

And just for clarity when i said fancy bolt action i was referring to fancy bolt actions in general. Not necessarily tikkas, but bolt actions are generally more accurate from what I've heard. But i do have a few barrels that are $400-500 barrels alone. I got some of everything running the gamut.

Btw, blowing my face off had nothing to do with reloading. Incase anyone was wondering.
This is one of those things like physics or math.. Sometimes its worth a decent long format debate.

I hope no one is put off by it..

But like you said to each their own, and stay safe and have fun.

But "that's all i have to say about that"

 

[pharmseller]

I wasn't wondering how you blew your face off.

And if you don't like Berger's recommendation, don't use it.

It's never failed me.

Lots of ways to skin the cat. My way is just one of them.




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[pharmseller]

Here's a good example of Berger's method. Pay attention to the OAL printed on the targets. Not a Tikka, btw. 30-06.







Only four shots on the last target. The only change was seating depth. I started with the shortest loads (top target) and went longer.

So, this is how I do it. Ymmv, smell test, butter barrels, what have you. And for clarity, I don't recommend starting at max loads, I thought I was clear on that. I do it, but I don't recommend it. I always share my load data, but always with the disclaimer that the load is safe in my rifle, not yours, and to work up to it.

Lots of loaders use this method with great success. My results speak for themselves but it's only one of many methods.


Edit to add, that's all I have to say about that, too.



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[ddjchemist]

I am back to reloading this evening. I had a busy week at work and did not have much time to do reloading. Here I came up with another question that my internet research does not give me a definitive answer. Is the optimum OGIVE rifle or bullet dependent? For example, if I determine the optimized OGIVE (bullet seating) for Sierra 168 gr BTHP, will that seating be also optimum for Nosler 168 gr BTHP. They look almost identical, but they are not. Nosler bullet has DATUM line about 10/1000 inches forward. I purchased a large quantity of 168gr Nosler BTHP match bullets and from now on will use them both for my 30-06 and 300 WM.

 

[DizzyJ]

I am back to reloading this evening. I had a busy week at work and did not have much time to do reloading. Here I came up with another question that my internet research does not give me a definitive answer. Is the optimum OGIVE rifle or bullet dependent? For example, if I determine the optimized OGIVE (bullet seating) for Sierra 168 gr BTHP, will that seating be also optimum for Nosler 168 gr BTHP. They look almost identical, but they are not. Nosler bullet has DATUM line about 10/1000 inches forward. I purchased a large quantity of 168gr Nosler BTHP match bullets and from now on will use them both for my 30-06 and 300 WM.

Those are probably a very close profile, but not exactly the same. I treat each bullet individually, meaning I work up a load for each, which includes the BTO (base to ogive) measurement.

The jump to the lands takes into account the angle of the leade of the rifling in the chamber as well as the angle of the bullet where the comparator makes contact with it.
Again, I believe it will be pretty close with those two particular Bullets, but not exactly the same.