What can we learn from the Bundy ranch situation?

[Gator Monroe]

JRuby seems to be a little to the left of Jimmy Kimmel , just sayin...

 

[Martini_Up]

Where is your evidence?

eye witness account coupled with a picture of a sniper team, rifle pointing at the cameraman.

but everyone know this and has seen the picture. why would you ask such stupid question unless you are at a loss if it isn't in wikipedia, hahahaha!!

 

[fd15k]

The BLM didn't just try to remove the cattle...they confiscated the cattle and attempted to auction them off- and they used force against anyone that tried to stop them.

Court order authorized BLM to impound the cattle should Bundy not comply with the order :

IT IS FURTHER ORDERED that the United States is entitled to seize and remove to impound any
of Bundy's cattle for any future trespasses, provided the United States has complied with the notice provisions under the governing regulations of the United States Department of the Interior.

Bundy was also ordered not to interfere with the impound :

IS FURTHER ORDERED that Bundy shall not physically interfere with any seizure or impoundment operation authorized by this Court's Order

I assume there are some standard procedures regarding impounding of property, where property is auctioned off if not recovered by the owner within certain amount of time. There might also be some complications that this is cattle as opposed to non-living property. But I really don't know the details of this alleged auction. Please share some info.

What would have been wrong with the BLM from just securing the property and holding on to the cattle until after the fees were paid? No harm would have been done to the cattle and if they were really trespassing then why was this not an avenue- versus using cattle cars, hundreds of agents and a helicopter to intimidate, confiscate and flex on a rancher?

Just what I stated above.

You don't have an answer for this- do you? The fact of the matter is, both the Bundy's and the BLM could have handled the situation better. But we expect better from our government. Just because they have the guns, funds and resources to put the boot down on every citizen that questions their authority doesn't give them the right to and they are accountable to the American people...that is what the fight is about.

Definitely, I am speechless BLM handled the situation quite well, assuming they were held back by the appeals Bundy filed. Otherwise I would expect this to be resolved back in the 90's.

It's about an over-reaching, tyranical government that used its might on a rancher that was doing nothing more than trying to live his life the way he has always lived it.

Times changed and he refused to change with it. That doesn't give the government the power to put a gun to his head and force the matter now does it? It doesn't in my book.

I think that's exactly the kind of rhetoric that caused for the "patriots" to gather up there and interfere with government business.

 

[Stomper]

Mmmm.... Constitution, Federalist Papers, Declaration of Independence.... All "rhetoric", I'm sure. Nice.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

I assume there are some standard procedures regarding impounding of property, where property is auctioned off if not recovered by the owner within certain amount of time. There might also be some complications that this is cattle as opposed to non-living property. But I really don't know the details of this alleged auction. Please share some info.

You assume incorrectly. The government had no title to Bundy's cattle. They could not legally sell them, much less across state lines.

As to Wikipedia, I too used to view it as an unbiased source until I read what it had reported on a couple of controversial situations with which I had intimate personal experience. In many cases Wikipedia is quite biased, and people with an axe to grind are allowed to hold editorial control over those pages.

Definitely, I am speechless BLM handled the situation quite well, assuming they were held back by the appeals Bundy filed. Otherwise I would expect this to be resolved back in the 90's.

And I am left speechless at the idea that anyone would think that the BLM handled this situation in anything but a disastrous manner. It came within a hair's breadth of becoming a shooting war, and the BLM personnel on site would have relived Custer's last battle. That is definitely not handling the situation quite well. The BLM had it's new storm troopers and toys of war sitting around waiting for just such a situation. To paraphrase an old adage, when your favorite tool is a shiny new hammer, everything looks like a nail.

 

[JRuby]

JRuby seems to be a little to the left of Jimmy Kimmel , just sayin...

You guys are a little right of Joeseph McCarthy.

 

[JRuby]

eye witness account coupled with a picture of a sniper team, rifle pointing at the cameraman.

but everyone know this and has seen the picture. why would you ask such stupid question unless you are at a loss if it isn't in wikipedia, hahahaha!!

where is the link to the picture?

 

[ZigZagZeke]

Why the federal government won't let this rest...

http://bit.ly/1mKWkg9

If you let one of them stand up to us, then they all might stand up! They out number us… and if we let them figure that out, they will put an end to our way of life!

 

[Stomper]

Why the federal government won't let this rest...

http://bit.ly/1mKWkg9

BINGO

 

[fd15k]

You assume incorrectly. The government had no title to Bundy's cattle. They could not legally sell them, much less across state lines.


As to Wikipedia, I too used to view it as an unbiased source until I read what it had reported on a couple of controversial situations with which I had intimate personal experience. In many cases Wikipedia is quite biased, and people with an axe to grind are allowed to hold editorial control over those pages.



And I am left speechless at the idea that anyone would think that the BLM handled this situation in anything but a disastrous manner. It came within a hair's breadth of becoming a shooting war, and the BLM personnel on site would have relived Custer's last battle. That is definitely not handling the situation quite well. The BLM had it's new storm troopers and toys of war sitting around waiting for just such a situation. To paraphrase an old adage, when your favorite tool is a shiny new hammer, everything looks like a nail.

So government can not sell any impounded property ever ?

You clearly don't understand that not only the source matters, but also its use. Wikipedia is typically a source aggregator, secondary or tertiary source. Sometimes people try to inject their opinions into the articles, and that is usually well moderated. In any case, references to the secondary and primary sources were provided. I did not try to sell wikipedia as the source of truth, I asked if the sequence of events was accurate, because in my mind that is what defines whether amount of force was appropriate.

Finally, correct me if I got you right. Government should never enforce any lawful orders if there is a risk of confrontation with an interested party. Ideally,only if interested party is the "correct party."

 

[Riot]

...I really don't know the details of this alleged auction. Please share some info.

Sure...

Cattle seized from public land in Nevada were once headed to Richfield for auction — but federal officials have changed their plans after Utah leaders argued the animals would threaten the state's $1 billion livestock industry.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/politics/57792018-90/utah-cattle-county-blm.html.csp

Basically, if it wasn't for the <broken link removed> for the BLM actions regarding this mater and the supporters that flocked to the Bundy ranch to stand up for this attrocity, the BLM would have confiscated the cows and auctioned them off without incident.

It amazes me that you didn't already know this for having such a strong opinion about the mater. You've attacked people's stance that supports the Bundy's yet you don't know everything about the situation?

Just saying...

 

[PiratePast40]

JRuby seems to be a little to the left of Jimmy Kimmel , just sayin...

You're just seeing the tip of the iceberg. His self imposed exodus from this board was way too short.

 

[fd15k]

Sure...

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/politics/57792018-90/utah-cattle-county-blm.html.csp

Basically, if it wasn't for the <broken link removed> for the BLM actions regarding this mater and the supporters that flocked to the Bundy ranch to stand up for this attrocity, the BLM would have confiscated the cows and auctioned them off without incident.

It amazes me that you didn't already know this for having such a strong opinion about the mater. You've attacked people's stance that supports the Bundy's yet you don't know everything about the situation?

Just saying...

Thanks for the link. It doesn't explain the basis for the auction, so I can't judge if that was appropriate.

*edit*
Oh and some of your Wikipedia sources sight other Wikipedia pages as sources...so, yeah- not very credible.

Holy cow, are you complaining about the terms being linked to the pages with their explanations ?

Edit:

Found a link on BLM website about auctioning impounded property (horses) :

<broken link removed>

Here is some more stuff :

BLM Trespass Livestock Impoundments
Questions and Answers
Q. Why does BLM impound someone's livestock?
A. BLM removes livestock from public lands that are grazing there without an authorized
permit. This unauthorized use is trespass grazing.
Q. Why is that a problem?
A. To use the public land for livestock grazing, a person must obtain a permit. BLM
manages the condition of the public rangelands through the permit system. Willful
trespass grazers allow their animals to repeatedly eat forage owned by the public for free
over long periods of time. Willful trespass grazing is unfair to operators who pay fees for
public forage and operate according to approved grazing plans. Additionally, trespass
grazing often adversely impacts the public land resources and adjacent private property.
Q. How can BLM take someone's private property?
A. Impoundment Orders were issued by a federal magistrate allowing BLM to comply
with State law regarding brand inspections while impounding and disposing of trespass
livestock. The BLM is authorized by Federal law to manage the public land and through
Federal regulations to remove trespass livestock.
Q. How long have the individuals whose livestock is being impounded been involved in
trespass grazing?
A. Documented trespass grazing has occurred for nearly five years.
Q. Will trespass livestock be rounded up on private land in the impoundment area?
A. No. Only livestock found on public lands will be impounded.
Q. Where will the livestock be taken after they are impounded?
A. The livestock will be transported to holding facilities at the BLM Winnemucca Field
Office.
Q. What will BLM do with the livestock?
A. The owners of the livestock have up to seven days and the first right to redeem them
by paying all debts and fines plus the costs associated with the impoundment and
boarding of their animals. After that time, if the fines and costs have not been paid, the
livestock will be sold to the highest bidders through a sealed bid auction.

<broken link removed>

And here is FAQ about this particular case :

Frequently Asked Questions
The cattle impound operation ended April 12, 2014.

<broken link removed>

Q. Why are BLM and NPS removing cattle?

A. Allowing individuals to continue illegal trespass grazing on federal lands is a matter of fairness to thousands of ranchers whose livestock graze in compliance with state and federal laws and regulations throughout the west.

Impoundments of livestock are done only as a last resort. In this case, the BLM and the National Park Service (NPS) have made repeated attempts to resolve the matter with Mr. Bundy administratively and judicially for over 20 years. Mr. Bundy has also failed to comply with multiple court orders to remove his cattle from the federal lands and to end the illegal trespass.

The BLM and NPS are working closely with local, state and federal officials to ensure the impoundment occurs safely and in a transparent and orderly manner, and with limited disruption to other users and visitors who enjoy our nation's public lands.
Q. Why are these considered trespass cattle?

A. The lands where the cattle are trespassing are not Mr. Bundy's private lands. They are public lands managed by the Bureau of Land Management and National Park Service. Two District Court Judges have held that Mr. Bundy has no legal right to graze the federal lands, and he has been permanently enjoined from grazing these lands and ordered to remove his cattle. Mr. Bundy's claim that he has a historic right to graze the federal lands was rejected by the court. The U.S. District Court for the District of Nevada ruled that "The Court has stated unequivocally on numerous occasions that . . . the Allotment is owned by the United States and managed by the DOI through the BLM and the NPS."
Q. Are there other public land ranchers in Southern Nevada?

A. Yes. Ranching continues throughout Southern Nevada on public and private lands. The BLM currently administers three active grazing allotments on public lands in Southern Nevada and nearly 800 allotments in the State of Nevada as a whole. Nationwide, the BLM administers nearly 18,000 grazing permits and leases on 157 million acres of public lands.

Q. What is the legal authority here?
A. In July and October 2013, the U.S. District Court for the District of Nevada ordered Cliven Bundy to remove his trespass cattle from public land inside and outside the former Bunkerville Allotment within 45 days and stated that the United States is authorized to seize and impound any cattle that remain in trespass after 45 days.

Q. Will trespass cattle be rounded up on private land in the impoundment area?

A. No. Only cattle found on federal lands will be impounded.
Q. Where will the cattle be taken after they are impounded?

A. Consistent with state law and administrative process, branded cattle will be offered back to the owner or owners of record and any estray cattle will be turned over to the Nevada Department of Agriculture.

Q. What areas of public land will be closed during the impoundment?

A. In order to ensure the safety of the public and personnel involved with the impoundment, the BLM and NPS will be implementing temporary and limited closures during the operations. Areas temporarily closed to public access will be posted with appropriate signage. The BLM and NPS will also provide daily updated information about the impoundment and closure areas on their websites. Please note that we are making every effort to minimize the impacts on public land users while the impound operations are underway and we regret any inconveniences this may cause.

<broken link removed>

Note that they don't specifically mention an auction, but I assume the same rule applied.

 

[JRuby]

where is the link to the picture?

You're just seeing the tip of the iceberg. His self imposed exodus from this board was way too short.

Geee - you missed me.

 

[Stomper]

Funny how in that Q&A session that it was never asked, "why were combat kitted squads and working dogs employed from the very start of the operation?"

 

[fd15k]

Funny how in that Q&A session that it was never asked, "why were combat kitted squads and working dogs employed from the very start of the operation?"

"F" in FAQ stands for "Frequently", perhaps this doesn't happen too often

 

[Riot]

Funny how in that Q&A session that it was never asked, "why were combat kitted squads and working dogs employed from the very start of the operation?"

A helicopter was used to round up cows...this was never about grazing fees, it was about making an example of a dissident.

 

[fd15k]

A helicopter was used to round up cows...this was never about grazing fees, it was about making an example of a dissident.

I thought you accepted the fact this guy is a criminal, and were just concerned about some details in the events. Making a statement like that indicates otherwise. Now, it makes sense to make an example of someone if the situation is out of the ordinary and you try to prevent any future incidents. But if you search for "impound" on BLM's website, you can see that this is a pretty common thing for them to deal with. Here a link for your convenience :
<broken link removed>

Btw, helicopter was used because the cattle was scattered on a large territory No conspiracy there.

 

[Doc In UPlace]

(sarcasm alert) Yes, if a helicopter is used for anything, that proves it's to get rid of dissidents. There is no other purpose for a helicopter other than this.
That's why they are flown over freeways during rush hour, to flush out commuting dissidents. You can see that, can't you?

 

[michaels]

What did I learn from the Bundy Ranch?

How if the politics are right, people from the right get up in arms (literally and figuratively)

Come on....

Like or absolutely hate the occupy movement, but how that was shut down by coordination from the federal government, and local govt. all across the country....

That was disgusting.

That was overreaching.

And these were people excersizing their first amendment rights, in a very, very literal way.

These were not people who were having property confiscated from them. After losing multiple court cases. (right or wrong)

And had snipers pointing guns at them.

And had 80 year old women getting pepper sprayed.

And had college kids, who were passively protesting, assaulted by campus security.

Look, "you" say you are against government overreach, etc..

Please, just realize, agree or disagree, think about what happens to protestors. Whether or not you like their cause.

Seriously, just to remind you. We live in the USA in 2014. All of our internet data, and phone calls are being tracked. The government sends people onto message boards to divide and discredit organizations and people. Think about that next time you lean on your ideological crutch. It's all so much bigger than left or right, at this moment.

So when a popular peoples movement comes again, don't be so quick to discredit it.....

And don't be so happy when the police break it all up.