Oregon Washington County Deputy Shoots Man Dead - Roy Rodgers Road

[Andy54Hawken]

What I'm wondering is why cops need armored vehicles . What exactly are the preparing for ?? Police state ??

First off I am not trying to sound like a jerk or anything like that.
Second thing : I have been to countries where it is difficult to tell the difference between the police and military due to both being similarly equipped....and wasn't too thrilled.

That said there are many reasons why the police would want the use of a armored vehicle:
Shock value...seeing that vehicle rolling on up to a bad guy or more may entice them to surrender...
Some bad guys may be armed with guns and ammo that can reduce cover to concealment...
The vehicle can be used for both cover and concealment...
Used to pull a down doors / push obstacles out of the way...
To remove wounded out of harms way while under fire...
Tied into my first reason...a boost of confidence for law enforcement and a show of "we ain't messing around any more" to the bad guys.

Should this vehicle roll on up and do traffic stops of course not...if the department has one it should be used only when the situation requires it.
I do worry ( a bit ) at the so-called "militarization of the police"...but I do think that in most cases and with most departments ....extra training and understanding of the use these items , goes on and that much of the worry ....is overrated.
Andy

 

[Argonaut]

My armored car is bigger than yours..............the Police need the tools to do there jobs safely for both themselves and the public. Ex military hardware is inexpensive, readily available and like a gun or any other tool, can be used for good or bad depending on the person wielding it. We have to trust our cops, they are the line that stands between civilized society and anarchy. If for some reason, you don't trust them.....there are deeper issues either within you or them. Get to know them, most are good guys without malice for anyone but bad guys. This guy was intentionally picking a fight that he had no chance to win. Maby suicidal ? Who knows. In other countries that Andy referenced, many times the Military is the law. It is illegal for them to be used like that here in our country so we are spoiled by not commonly seeing uniformed personnel carrying automatic weapons in our midst but with the escalating threats our officers are facing, it may become more common here too. I owned one of these for a while that I bought from the Leavenworth Ks. Sheriff department. I sold it to a paint ball range in Tennessee as I remember. They drove it from Kansas Home on the highway.

 

[nammac]

my initial thought watching this unfold last night was "why is deadly force the only solution". Then I learned he had one of those evil black AR rifles... perhaps deadly force was justified...

I'll hold most comments until after all the facts come out, but there could be many reasons why he was out there trying to blow off steam... Loss of job, wife found another lover, diagnosed with a terminal disease... Pissed at his truck and dealer...

Regardless of the root cause, a sad situation for all involved...

 

[Doublesunder]

While I believe Law Enforcement should use everything at their disposal to do their job and return home safely every night.
There is, and should be a line where police begin operating out of their scope of operations. Armored vehicles, grenade launchers, full automatic weapons and military tactics is that line.

Believe it or not the average citizen isn't out gunning for you.

Most people respect and appreciate why law enforcement is there. Don't make that line start looking blurry.

 

[Argonaut]

my initial thought watching this unfold last night was "why is deadly force the only solution". Then I learned he had one of those evil black AR rifles... perhaps deadly force was justified...

I'll hold most comments until after all the facts come out, but there could be many reasons why he was out there trying to blow off steam... Loss of job, wife found another lover, diagnosed with a terminal disease... Pissed at his truck and dealer...

Regardless of the root cause, a sad situation for all involved...

He did have a terminal disease.........whatever it was got him killed. None of those are valid reasons for failing yielding to LE when confronted, even if they are wrong, it can be sorted out without bloodshed. He had more than ample opportunity to simply give up and live another day. The potential danger of a 6,000 lb vehicle careening around the countryside is a thousand fold more dangerous than a semi automatic coyote gun. We all make choices, for some reason his last action was either poorly thought out or he achieved the desires effect. In any event, it is a tragedy for probably many people, the officers that were put into the position of taking action, his family or anyone he left behind. In making difficult sometimes emotional decisions, I frequently fall back on the old adage........is that the hill you want to die on?...........evidently, he decided this was the one for him.

 

[Argonaut]

While I believe Law Enforcement should use everything at their disposal to do their job and return home safely every night.
There is, and should be a line where police begin operating out of their scope of operations. Armored vehicles, grenade launchers, full automatic weapons and military tactics is that line.

Believe it or not the average citizen isn't out gunning for you.

Most people respect and appreciate why law enforcement is there. Don't make that line start looking blurry.

LE isn't playing some board game......they are dealing with life and death in many situations. They can't afford to loose a fight and should be allocated any tools necessary to accomplish the job. If the tools are somehow misused, that needs to be addressed but we have to trust them with anything available to exicute the duties we assign them. The "average citizen" isn't there real concern. The "average citizen" would have stoped and submitted to them when they showed up or would not have been in that situation in the first place.

 

[nammac]

He did have a terminal disease.........whatever it was got him killed. None of those are valid reasons for failing yielding to LE when confronted, even if they are wrong, it can be sorted out without bloodshed. He had more than ample opportunity to simply give up and live another day. The potential danger of a 6,000 lb vehicle careening around the countryside is a thousand fold more dangerous than a semi automatic coyote gun. We all make choices, for some reason his last action was either poorly thought out or he achieved the desires effect. In any event, it is a tragedy for probably many people, the officers that were put into the position of taking action, his family or anyone he left behind. In making difficult sometimes emotional decisions, I frequently fall back on the old adage........is that the hill you want to die on?...........evidently, he decided this was the one for him.

WCSO was safe and secure in their armored Bearcat... More could have been done to diffuse the situation... Period...

 

[Doublesunder]

LE isn't playing some board game......they are dealing with life and death in many situations. They can't afford to loose a fight and should be allocated any tools necessary to accomplish the job. If the tools are somehow misused, that needs to be addressed but we have to trust them with anything available to exicute the duties we assign them. The "average citizen" isn't there real concern. The "average citizen" would have stoped and submitted to them when they showed up or would not have been in that situation in the first place.

Right!!, and it's the "average citizen" who draws the lines.

 

[No_Regerts]

WCSO was safe and secure in their armored Bearcat... More could have been done to diffuse the situation... Period...

What about everyone else trying to go about their business?

 

[Koda]

WCSO was safe and secure in their armored Bearcat... More could have been done to diffuse the situation... Period...

like what?
How do you safely get an armed man shooting out of a truck, out of his truck when he doesn't want to?

 

[No_Regerts]

While I believe Law Enforcement should use everything at their disposal to do their job and return home safely every night.
There is, and should be a line where police begin operating out of their scope of operations. Armored vehicles, grenade launchers, full automatic weapons and military tactics is that line.

Believe it or not the average citizen isn't out gunning for you.

Most people respect and appreciate why law enforcement is there. Don't make that line start looking blurry.

The scope of the operation is determined by the situation. If you have a situation that has escalated to a certain point, you have to be able to exceed the threat level to stop it quickly before anyone else gets hurt that didn't need to.

"Military" tactics are like "military" AR15s. You dont see LE calling in fire missions or air strikes. Many situations would have resulted in that if it were a military engagement. Instead, LE still has to do things mostly with boots on the ground.

Someone is surely thinking that "If its that bad, call in the national guard!" Thats a great idea since it will take forever and guard troops don't get all the training in constitutional rights. Sarcasm.

 

[Doublesunder]

Unfortunately all we ever receive is a one sided account on a given situation.
The "News" is more entertainment than factual.

 

[No_Regerts]

Unfortunately all we ever receive is a one sided account on a given situation.
The "News" is more entertainment than factual.

Would have been more entertaining if one vehicle was orange with a confederate flag on the roof and some banjo music.

 

[Kruel J]

From what I've read, the guy was doing donuts and driving erratically. When approached by police he opens fire and continues on. At the point he decided to open fire, all bets are off. The police are obligated to stop the threat so he can't shoot them or civilians. I find nothing sad about this nor do I think the police should have done anything differently. Let's not forget the truck he was driving was ALSO a threat.

Good job, WCSO.

 

[Kruel J]

WCSO was safe and secure in their armored Bearcat... More could have been done to diffuse the situation... Period...

Like what? They tried to stop him with the Bearcat several times and he just kept driving. Even at the point they opened fire you can see his tires spinning as he's trying to still get away. Had they backed off and let him keep driving, who knows what he would have done. He was an immediate threat to LEO's and civilians as well if he would have got back onto pavement.

 

[The Heretic]

It is hard to judge from very little info and I tend to give such events time to be analyzed and more info to come out later before weighing in on them.

I agree that it worries me when I see civilian LEOs with armored cars, but at the same time I can see where there might be situations where they are justified - what with some people escalating the level of violence they are willing to engage in (not the number of incidents, which actually is on the decline, but the level some people are willing to go to).

OTOH - someone just out doing donuts in the mud? I've done that - in mud, snow, gravel. Having a gun in the vehicle is not a crime. Shooting it inside city limits? Usually, yes. I would be interested in exactly where this is? They said Sherwood - but RRR goes from Scholls Ferry to well into Sherwood, so was it really Sherwood? How close was it to a school? Was it the new HS at Scholls Ferry/RRR? If the guy was messing around in the new construction there or closer to some other school then I could see where LEOs would be worried about kids in school and not willing to let it escalate.

And then there is the thing where the guy did not stop when LEOs showed up. How long did that last? Hard to tell from the vids which I am sure were edited and shortened. Sometimes you don't even know that LEOs are there - although of course, once they hit you several times you should know - but OTOH, failing to stop is not necessarily a capital crime either (although, it has been used as justification for using lethal force, being out in a field does not necessarily put anyone at risk).

In short, a lot of unknowns - timeline, were there really shots from the driver? Where was this happening exactly? What was the driver shooting at? I could see where some actions might be misinterpreted.

 

[The Heretic]

Like what? They tried to stop him with the Bearcat several times and he just kept driving. Even at the point they opened fire you can see his tires spinning as he's trying to still get away. Had they backed off and let him keep driving, who knows what he would have done. He was an immediate threat to LEO's and civilians as well if he would have got back onto pavement.

IIRC from the vid, he got out of the vehicle then they pushed his vehicle again and he got back in. From that angle and distance it is hard to say what was happening. Was he reaching back in the vehicle to get his gun? Or did he just think it was safer to be in the vehicle than alongside it when the AC was pushing the truck towards him? What did the LEO see to cause him to open fire?

 

[The Heretic]

Another thing - this is a muddy field. The guy is driving erratically with a full sized pickup. Reportedly hit a tree. Maybe there were no off-road capable LEO vehicles except the APC that could deal with a full sized PU on scene. I wouldn't want to go out there with a 2WD patrol car. I would want to risk my crossover AWD SUV. I probably would not even want to risk my full sized flat bed if I had an APC instead. I can imagine they were worried that with what was probably a 4x4 that the guy would just leave the field at some place they did not have an exit covered (which might be almost anywhere on the periphery) and then they have a chase on public roads, which is very dangerous, and maybe the guy was working up to go shoot up the school?

All of these things they have to take into account in a very fluid and fast evolving situation.

If I had an APC I probably would have employed it.

 

[Heyjoe]

Old carburated trucks sometimes backfire when rode hard, could sound like gunfire?

From an apc visuals and audible awareness are most likely diminished.

Not taking sides here as police typically have my full support considering the tough nature of their job, just some thoughts.

Prayers for the officer, families, and suspects family. A tough situation, no doubt.

 

[The Heretic]

Old carburated trucks sometimes backfire when rode hard, could sound like gunfire?

Not an older truck - 90s era or later, same as my flatbed - maybe even diesel.