Tried to buy Polymer80 lower from MidwayUSA and got a message saying Washington prohibits the sale of non-serialized lowers...

[Bushman]

WTF? I searched online and what I saw was last May they didn't ban non-serialized lowers. Just plastic lowers. Didn't the Polymer80 have metal rails?

New Washington laws target 'ghost guns,' tighten firearm rules

The law enacts criminal penalties for owning or buying an undetectable firearm.

www.king5.com

That essentially prohibits printing complete plastic guns on 3D printers, unless metal parts were included.

The law stops short of banning untraceable guns, defined as guns without a serial number from a federally licensed firearm manufacturer.

Read More

 

[Bushman]

This says it's not banned at all, non-serialized lowers, just the SALE of them is (as in you make a gun then sell it), but that was illegal by federal law to begin with. It's the Polymer80 that doesn't have enough metal to meet the 3.7 oz metal requirement that is banned in WA which is why I can't buy it from MidwayUSA. UGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[TTSX]

Crazy to the South, crazy to the North.... Can't wait to see what crazy they drum up in Oregon. There's always safety to the East, but there's also snow. I hate snow.

 

[bolus]

Polymer80 is playing it safe and and told distributors to not sell it to Washington because of how they interpreted the law. Time to have someone get it and send you one.

 

[notazombie]

Got kin in Idaho? Mail lady left one on my doorstep yesterday.

 

[awshoot]

This says it's not banned at all, non-serialized lowers, just the SALE of them is (as in you make a gun then sell it), but that was illegal by federal law to begin with. It's the Polymer80 that doesn't have enough metal to meet the 3.7 oz metal requirement that is banned in WA which is why I can't buy it from MidwayUSA. UGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It isn't that it is illegal to sell them, it is that if a person sells them without doing a BGC on the buyer, and the buyer turns out to be a prohibited person, the seller has committed a crime (it is no leap to think that selling an 80% is an aid to the manufacture of a firearm): RCW 9.41.325: Undetectable or untraceable firearms—Penalties.

(1) No person may knowingly or recklessly allow, facilitate, aid, or abet the manufacture or assembly of an undetectable firearm or untraceable firearm by a person who: (a) Is ineligible under state or federal law to possess a firearm; or (b) has signed a valid voluntary waiver of firearm rights that has not been revoked under RCW 9.41.350. For purposes of this provision, the failure to conduct a background check as provided in RCW 9.41.113 shall be prima facie evidence of recklessness.

 

[Red98422]

It isn't that it is illegal to sell them, it is that if a person sells them without doing a BGC on the buyer, and the buyer turns out to be a prohibited person, the seller has committed a crime (it is no leap to think that selling an 80% is an aid to the manufacture of a firearm): RCW 9.41.325: Undetectable or untraceable firearms—Penalties.

Thank you for posting the correct information!!!

 

[Bushman]

Thank you for posting the correct information!!!

That's not the correct information, it's one section of statute he quoted not the entire statute, every attorney and legal web site I've looked at say's it's illegal to sell these once completed under Washington law.

Washington
In 2019, Washington enacted laws regulating ghost guns. The state defines undetectable and untraceable firearms defined as follows:

• "Undetectable firearm" means any firearm that is not as detectable as 3.7 ounces of 17-4 PH stainless steel by walk-through metal detectors or magnetometers commonly used at airports or any firearm where the barrel, the slide or cylinder, or the frame or receiver of the firearm would not generate an image that accurately depicts the shape of the part when examined by the types of X-ray machines commonly used at airports.
• "Untraceable firearm" means any firearm manufactured after July 1, 2019, that is not an antique firearm and that cannot be traced by law enforcement by means of a serial number affixed to the firearm by a federally licensed manufacturer or importer.

It is illegal in the state to:

• Manufacture, own, buy, sell, loan, furnish, transport, or possess an undetectable firearm or any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for use in an undetectable firearm.
• Assemble or repair any undetectable firearm.
• Manufacture an untraceable firearm with the intent to sell it.

Ghost Guns

Universal background checks save lives from gun violence.

lawcenter.giffords.org

 

[Bushman]

Thank you for posting the correct information!!!

It isn't the correct information, it's one part of the statute, educate yourself rather than blindly following a sliver of what someone posted......this is the other RCW....he only posted RCW 9.41.325:

The other statute portion below shows that manufacturing one ghost gun with an intent to sell one is illegal. What I posted before in my original 2 posts is 100% accurate. Non serialized firearms are illegal to SELL in the state of Washington now. The non serialized guns would still be legal to build with but the Polymer80 lowers don't have the required 3.7 oz of metal to meet the OTHER statutory requirements for the law. So if they did, you could still build one and buy them here as long as you don't SELLLLLLL THEMMMM....

RCW 9.41.190
Unlawful firearms—Exceptions.
(1) Except as otherwise provided in this section, it is unlawful for any person to:
(a) Manufacture, own, buy, sell, loan, furnish, transport, or have in possession or under control, any machine gun, bump-fire stock, undetectable firearm, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle;
(b) Manufacture, own, buy, sell, loan, furnish, transport, or have in possession or under control, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for use in a machine gun, bump-fire stock, undetectable firearm, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, or in converting a weapon into a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle;
(c) Assemble or repair any machine gun, bump-fire stock, undetectable firearm, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle; or
(d) Manufacture an untraceable firearm with the intent to sell the untraceable firearm.

 

[Red98422]

It isn't the correct information, it's one part of the statute, educate yourself rather than blindly following a sliver of what someone posted......this is the other RCW....he only posted RCW 9.41.325:

RCW 9.41.190
Unlawful firearms—Exceptions.
(1) Except as otherwise provided in this section, it is unlawful for any person to:
(a) Manufacture, own, buy, sell, loan, furnish, transport, or have in possession or under control, any machine gun, bump-fire stock, undetectable firearm, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle;
(b) Manufacture, own, buy, sell, loan, furnish, transport, or have in possession or under control, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for use in a machine gun, bump-fire stock, undetectable firearm, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, or in converting a weapon into a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle;
(c) Assemble or repair any machine gun, bump-fire stock, undetectable firearm, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle; or
(d) Manufacture an untraceable firearm with the intent to sell the untraceable firearm.

This is litteraly nothing more than a rebranded federal law.

P80s are not Firearms!!!!!! Until it has been milled out and the rails and LPK is installed it remains a useless hunk of plastic.

Now it has always been illegal to manufacture ANY firearms for resale without a license, this doesn't change that.

I would also appreciate that you don't ASSume what other folks do or don't know. Obviously your free to form your own opinion, but the law is blatantly clear and nothing you posted adds to the conversation at hand. Which was asking why brownells and others have stopped selling them to WA residents.

Also this is off track but let's clear this up for the record....IT IS NOT DUE TO THE METAL CONTENT OR LACK THEROF....otherwise all glocks and other similar polymer framed handguns would be contraband as per the law.

 

[DirectDrive]

WTF? I searched online and what I saw was last May they didn't ban non-serialized lowers. Just plastic lowers. Didn't the Polymer80 have metal rails?

New Washington laws target 'ghost guns,' tighten firearm rules

The law enacts criminal penalties for owning or buying an undetectable firearm.

www.king5.com

That essentially prohibits printing complete plastic guns on 3D printers, unless metal parts were included.

The law stops short of banning untraceable guns, defined as guns without a serial number from a federally licensed firearm manufacturer.

Try :
Arm or Ally
Rockey Brass

Those two have had the best prices on P80 stuff.
I just rec'd some frames from Arm or Ally.

 

[EHJ]

"Undetectable" vs "Untraceable..."

"The law bans outright undetectable guns and limits — but not ban — untraceable guns.
Specifically outlawed is any firearm that doesn't contain at least 3.7 ounces of steel, and any gun that wouldn't show a recognizable outline in an X-ray machine.
That essentially prohibits printing complete plastic guns on 3D printers, unless metal parts were included.
The law stops short of banning untraceable guns, defined as guns without a serial number from a federally licensed firearm manufacturer.
Making untraceable guns for personal use is allowed within certain limits under federal law."

 

[Alexx1401]

This got beat around a lot a while back. It "looks" to me like its fine to buy one in WA. That does not mean everyone will see you one here. Some places will no longer sell AR15 80% lowers here too. The reason is the people selling them do not want to risk the legal bills if the state decides to go after them. The state can throw unlimited cash at them. The people selling these have to pay for their own lawyers. So unless voters in WA decide they care you just have to work around them.

 

[awshoot]

That's not the correct information, it's one section of statute he quoted not the entire statute, every attorney and legal web site I've looked at say's it's illegal to sell these once completed under Washington law.

We weren't talking about selling completed firearms. We were talking about 80% receivers.

As for selling a DIY firearm, that too is not technically illegal under WA law (I don't know about Federal law though). You simply can't have intended to sell it when you built it: RCW 9.41.190: Unlawful firearms—Exceptions.

(1) Except as otherwise provided in this section, it is unlawful for any person to:
...
(d) Manufacture an untraceable firearm with the intent to sell the untraceable firearm.

That said -- is it a good idea to sell a firearm you made without such intent? No. How exactly are you going to prove what was in your head and even if you sucede, it is going to cost you a bundle in lawyer fees. This is the same foundation for companies like Midway not selling 80% receivers -- they don't want to spend the 5 to 6 figures it takes to go to court on the issue (and maybe lose), and so it's more economical to just blacklist WA state.

As for the Federal law on the topic, I don't have any good references. Even if it was similar to WA's law, it would still be a terrible idea to sell a DIY firearm.

 

[awshoot]

...
That essentially prohibits printing complete plastic guns on 3D printers, unless metal parts were included.
...

Almost, but there is an out -- it's just that nobody manufactures it yet: radio-opaque filament. The Federal law even has a manufacturing suggestion, barium sulfate -- see 18 USC 922(p)(1)(B): 18 U.S. Code § 922 - Unlawful acts

(B) any major component of which, when subjected to inspection by the types of x-ray machines commonly used at airports, does not generate an image that accurately depicts the shape of the component. Barium sulfate or other compounds may be used in the fabrication of the component.

Barium Sulfate is non-toxic: Barium sulfate - Wikipedia
and pretty cheap:


There are compounds that are more radio-opaque (so less can be used which should lead to lower impairment of plastic's strength) but they are also much more expensive. Anyway, the law Bob bubblegumhead passed doesn't ban 3d printed firearms -- it bans undetectable firearms. A firearm printed with detectable filament is outside the prohibition.

 

[awshoot]

This got beat around a lot a while back. It "looks" to me like its fine to buy one in WA. That does not mean everyone will see you one here. Some places will no longer sell AR15 80% lowers here too. The reason is the people selling them do not want to risk the legal bills if the state decides to go after them. The state can throw unlimited cash at them. The people selling these have to pay for their own lawyers. So unless voters in WA decide they care you just have to work around them.

Short sweet accurate. Nailed it.

 

[Alexx1401]

We weren't talking about selling completed firearms. We were talking about 80% receivers.

As for selling a DIY firearm, that too is not technically illegal under WA law (I don't know about Federal law though). You simply can't have intended to sell it when you built it: RCW 9.41.190: Unlawful firearms—Exceptions.



That said -- is it a good idea to sell a firearm you made without such intent? No. How exactly are you going to prove what was in your head and even if you sucede, it is going to cost you a bundle in lawyer fees. This is the same foundation for companies like Midway not selling 80% receivers -- they don't want to spend the 5 to 6 figures it takes to go to court on the issue (and maybe lose), and so it's more economical to just blacklist WA state.

As for the Federal law on the topic, I don't have any good references. Even if it was similar to WA's law, it would still be a terrible idea to sell a DIY firearm.

As soon as I tried this, building from an 80%, I told others there was no way I would sell one I made. If i ever want to sell the stuff I would sell the parts - the lower. The long term risk of having to fight this in court at some time in the future is not even close to worth it to me. I know many claim they do, make guns and later sell. Their choice. To me it's just not worth the chance of having a huge legal hassle later.

 

[awshoot]

As soon as I tried this, building from an 80%, I told others there was no way I would sell one I made. If i ever want to sell the stuff I would sell the parts - the lower. The long term risk of having to fight this in court at some time in the future is not even close to worth it to me. I know many claim they do, make guns and later sell. Their choice. To me it's just not worth the chance of having a huge legal hassle later.

Smart -- Why risk 10s of thousands in legal fees over a chunk of metal you might get an extra $50 for?

 

[Jonnyuma]

I don't have an answer and I don't live in WA, but this is a pretty good example of what I said in another thread (about the proposed ammo tax)...

WA (and other states) are making laws in the same manner that CA has (and continues to do): Byzantine and overlapping to the point that legislators and Leo's don't even know what they contain. Some online retailers have gotten to the point that shipping some (or any) items to those states is too much of a legal liability to take the chance.

 

[Bushman]

This is litteraly nothing more than a rebranded federal law.

P80s are not Firearms!!!!!! Until it has been milled out and the rails and LPK is installed it remains a useless hunk of plastic.

Now it has always been illegal to manufacture ANY firearms for resale without a license, this doesn't change that.

I would also appreciate that you don't ASSume what other folks do or don't know. Obviously your free to form your own opinion, but the law is blatantly clear and nothing you posted adds to the conversation at hand. Which was asking why brownells and others have stopped selling them to WA residents.

Also this is off track but let's clear this up for the record....IT IS NOT DUE TO THE METAL CONTENT OR LACK THEROF....otherwise all glocks and other similar polymer framed handguns would be contraband as per the law.

Ummmm....you're apparently incapable of admitting you were wrong and I was right. You are the one who assumed he posted the correct information. I just proved to you that he was wrong and I was right and here you are attacking ME instead of saying, hey, I was wrong. LIKE I SAID FROM THE BEGINNING, IT IS ILLEGAL NOW IN WA...POLYMER 80'S ARE ONLY ILLEGAL DUE TO THEIR LACK OF METAL CONTENT OF 3.7 OZ. BUT BARRING THAT IF IT HAS ENOUGH METAL YOU CAN STILL BUY, OWN AND BUILD THEM HERE AS LONG AS YOU DON'T SELL THEM TO ANYONE...THE DIFFERENCE FOR THE HARD OF THINKING BETWEEN GLOCKS AND POLYMER 80'S IS THAT THE GLOCK HAS A SERIAL NUMBER AND HAS TO BE BOUGHT THROUGH AN FFL ALREADY HERE...AND IT HAS ENOUGH METAL, THE RAILS AND EJECTOR, LOCKING BLOCK, SERIAL NUMBER IN THE METAL INSERT OF THE FRAME, ETC. ARE MORE THAN ENOUGH METAL....JESUS, IT'S NOT THAT HARD TO FIGURE OUT....