There are some things I don't understand well about firearms and some helpful input would be much appreciate...

[po18guy]

What armor currently is defeated by 7.62x51 that is also not defeated by 5.56? Rifle rated armor is killed by speed over it's threat rating or bullet alloy outside of it's threat rating. Any pistol rated armor will get easily pierced by any centerfire rifle cartridge generally speaking.

Seems to me if people are that worried about engaging armored attackers practicing shooting where the armor isn't is a consistent winner. Waists, and necks/faces generally are never armored even when people are wearing armor, obviously legs too, but I was focusing more on upper body.

Regarding the OP's question about short AR vs long AR. The answer is "yes" - 20inch barrel ballistically wins compared to 16" or 10.5/11.5" AR - but when it comes to working in short distances like that of inside a house, shorter has it's advantages. Sure you can train to be proficient with longer guns in short distances, but you'll be fighting the curve. It's physics - shorter overall length allows for maneuvering faster because less mass is moving less distance, same reason you can move a short stick through the air faster than a longer one.

If you go from being used to a 20 inch to try using a 10.5, you'll be amazed how nimble it seems. Noise will be considerably increased too if that is a factor for you.

If I was fighting outside at extended distances, I would want the velocity of a longer barrel (and a scope). Inside house distances - short rifle is basically made for that. I'd say get one and try it, I have been happy with Palmetto, but many other brands offer short AR's too. Take your pick.

308 just a better manstopper and animal stopper if things get wild.
OK, the Springfield Saint 308 pistol. Pretty handy.

 

[American123]

308 just a better manstopper and animal stopper if things get wild.
OK, the Springfield Saint 308 pistol. Pretty handy.

No argument that .308 is a better "finisher" than .223, I was specifically responding to the point on armor penetration. .308 pistols with short barrels are trash though. If you read up on the velocity of a 10.5 .308 for example - that's a lot of powder burning outside the barrel so much so that .300 blk out is worth looking at.

 

[DunRanull]

20" AR-15 rifle?
16" M4 Carbine/LE6920 civilian variant?

Which weapon will work better for when "s__ hits the fan"?

Riots?
Foreign invasions?

Is an M4 carbine harder to hold and control under fire than the 20" rifle version of an AR platform?

The M4 appears to have shorter handguards that don't allow the non-firing hand to stretch out as far as on a standard AR-15 to grasp them while firing.
The M4 makes me think the non-firing arm might feel a bit cramped.

I would think the carbine is weildier in tight places than the rifle.

This soldier seems to be grasping the weapon at the front sight base with a gloved hand. Oddly, the NCO is referring to this weapon as a "gun" several times. That is something that was no-no to refer to an M16 as. It could be that the army might recognize the M4 as a "submachine gun".

"This is my rifle, this is my gun! One is for killing, the other for fun!" Guns are generally crew-served and have wheels...

 

[GoatFarmer]

I lean toward 7.62X51, as the sale and use of various body armors is on the rise. It seems unlikely that any of us would have to wage a protracted battle requiring 200-300 rounds on person.

The army has the M995 is a 5.56-mm Armor Piercing (AP) cartridge for AR-based weapons already. I guess civilians can't have the likes of this round also. If bad guys are going to be in body armor we will have to train to aim for the head.

Ok, which 5.56 ammo type civilians can legally own is best for the AR platform for defense?

 

[Quirt Evans]

Their is no "best" for all situations, every combination of barrel length/buttstock type is a compromise.
One configuration that tries to "thread the needle" in the middle ground is the "Dissipater" model.
Uses the 16in. barrel of the civilian M4, but has the sight radius and comfortable-for-use handguard of the 20in rifle.
Can use either buttstock,, but their is no doubt that the fixed stock with the rifle buffer is easier for distance shooting, and it gives much less "bounce" to the sight picture,, it's also easier on the mechanism, especially with a mid-length gas system.

 

[bbbass]

I think I'm going to put this AR notion out of my mind for now and seriously consider a bolt-action rifle in a sensible caliber to deal with squeaks in an efficient and economic fashion since I have other suitable weapons (police shotgun, handgun) already for those dreaded "s__ hits the fan" days. I have a good pre-owned Savage Model 99 in .300 Savage for deer on my gun wish list and that'll bust any yote as well.

Have you considered higher powered rimfire like the .17HMR or the .22Magnum? You mentioned that .22lr is boring... I shoot .22lr at ground squirrels up to 100yds and I find it challenging rather than boring. But you might like the extra poop a juiced up rimfire puts out... I've heard they are really fun to shoot, and ammo is plentiful right now.

I would rather just pay about $650 for a new Weatherby Vanguard for squeak control in a sensible caliber. I will have to consider ammo price and accuracy for the specific varmint caliber a Vanguard is offered in. It might be of economic necessity to handload if one has countless squeaks to deal with constantly.

It seems like cheap .223 Rem. ammo can be had in bulk. The Vanguard Weatherguard is chambered in it. The question is how good will it be for squeaks at what ranges? At the following link it's as low as .26 cents a round in bulk of 500 count:

AFAIK bolt action .223s are very accurate. That should suit you well for killing squeaks with CF firearm. However, I have not been able to find .223 ammo in stock anywhere currently. Not even in bulk. This probably will change later, or maybe I wasn't looking at buying enough rounds?

I would spend my Varmint Wackin budget on a Savage Bolt rifle in .223/ 5.56, and defence budget on a Colt or simmiler AR in the length and twist combo that serves your needs best!
If you can find an older Remington 700 or Ruger M-77 in .223, those would make fantastic varmint rifles at affordable prices, leaving room for a good scope which is arguably even more important then the rifle in the squeaky pig towns!

^^^THIS^^^

Here's a thread for you to browse, I think it's what Was referred to

What’s the appeal of AR rifles?

I’m a rifle newbie. I purchased my first pistol last year for home defense and have since really started to enjoy target shooting, etc. I just purchased a CMMG Banshee 10mm that’s classified as a pistol but it certainly resembles an AR. Trying to understand the appeal of 5.56 / AR rifles...

www.northwestfirearms.com

That's the one... thx Joe13!!!

 

[GoatFarmer]

Their is no "best" for all situations, every combination of barrel length/buttstock type is a compromise.
One configuration that tries to "thread the needle" in the middle ground is the "Dissipater" model.
Uses the 16in. barrel of the civilian M4, but has the sight radius and comfortable-for-use handguard of the 20in rifle.
Can use either buttstock,, but their is no doubt that the fixed stock with the rifle buffer is easier for distance shooting, and it gives much less "bounce" to the sight picture,, it's also easier on the mechanism, especially with a mid-length gas system.

I just read green-tip 5.56 or .223 ammo is legal for civilians but might be very rare and/or prohibitively expensive to get. When choosing home-defense ammo, one must consider availability and affordability as well as effectiveness for the intended purpose.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

I would suggest to any who may be considering the scenarios in the OP to first consider what they want to do...and then think about what equipment to use.

I say this because each of the listed scenarios are vastly different from each other and can be different for each person depending on where they live , their mindset , their health and fitness , etc....

If forced to give a actual recommendation of what firearm to use for :
Home Defense...
Riots...
Foreign invasions....

I would say use what you have ....use what you shoot and carry the best with ...use what firearm you have the most ammo for....

Notice the "you" in the statement above....
That is important....because it is your life here , that we are talking about.
And no matter what someone else suggests or says to use....
Their ideas and suggestions may not be helpful , if their suggestions do not work for you , how you shoot , your situation....etc...

If forced to make this choice with a AR15 type rifle....
I would use the one that I own...
A 16 inch barreled Carbine with a fixed A2 stock and a Daniel Defense A1 sight...
Not fancy..., not flashy....but it does work for me....it may not work for anyone else.
Andy

 

[GoatFarmer]

I would suggest to any who may be considering the scenarios in the OP to first consider what they want to do...and then think about what equipment to use.

I say this because each of the listed scenarios are vastly different from each other and can be different for each person depending on where they live , their mindset , their health and fitness , etc....

If forced to give a actual recommendation of what firearm to use if for
Home Defense...
Riots...
Foreign invasions....

I would say use what you have ....use what you shoot and carry the best with ...use what firearm you have the most ammo for....

Notice the "you" in the statement above....
That is important....because it is your life here , that we are talking about.
And no matter what someone else suggests or says to use....
Their ideas and suggestions may not helpful if their suggestions do not work for you , how you shoot , your situation....etc...

If forced to make this choice with a AR15 type rifle....
I would use the one that I own...
A 16 inch barreled Carbine with a fixed A2 stock and a Daniel Defense A1 sight...
Not fancy..., not flashy....but it does work for me....it may not work for anyone else.
Andy

What legal-and-available DEFENSIVE ammo types might you use in your AR platform, Andy? What choices of ammo types (bullet types) for AR weapons do civilians have? If a bad guy in body armor is invading my home, what gun/ammo combo is my best defense? It's true I might not be able to acquire the most ideal ammo for that situation so I might have to settle for second best. Any weapon and ammo against even a bad guy in body armor is still better than no weapon or ammo. An AR loaded with ball ammo still beats a pocket knife even in that scenario. We can consider bullet weight and construction as well as legality, price and availability. We can only use what is legally, physically and financially available to us. Once we know what we are even able to get, we can then pick our poison as it were. I want to know our viable options as law-abiding American citizens.

 

[Camelfilter]

I just read green-tip 5.56 or .223 ammo is legal for civilians but might be very rare and/or prohibitively expensive to get. When choosing home-defense ammo, one must consider availability and affordability as well as effectiveness for the intended purpose.

All ammunition may be challenging to obtain at the moment. Either pricing, or availability, or both.

Prior to the current blight, green tip 5.56 was readily available and inexpensive.

Now it's not. Just like everything else.

Have you been a firearms enthusiast amidst other ammunition blights, or is this your first one?

 

[Andy54Hawken]

What legal-and-available DEFENSIVE ammo types might you use in your AR platform, Andy? What choices of ammo types (bullet types) for AR weapons do civilians have? If a bad guy in body armor is invading my home, what gun/ammo combo is my best defense? We can consider bullet weight and construction.

I can only say what I use....
My rifle shoots best with a 55 grain bullet... Be it a FMJ , Soft point or Hollow point....
What someone else's rifle shoots best with may be different.

And again as for your question of : " what gun/ ammo combo is my best defense?"

I can only ask did you not read my post that you quoted....?

If not , or if you did , but did not understand my point....
To sum up what I said :

It depends....Use what you have and shoot the best with.
This may or may not be the same as anyone else or what someone else suggests to use.
Andy

 

[GoatFarmer]

All ammunition may be challenging to obtain at the moment. Either pricing, or availability, or both.

Prior to the current blight, green tip 5.56 was readily available and inexpensive.

Now it's not. Just like everything else.

Have you been a firearms enthusiast amidst other ammunition blights, or is this your first one?

Thank you. The only firearm I possess at the moment is a police pump shotgun, Remmy 870. I also have 25 rounds of #4 fowl loads. I'm not so much a firearms enthusiast as I am a person who values guns mainly as a practical tool. This latest "drought" on guns and ammo has not made me any more enthusiastic than I was while guns and ammo were good and plenty. I am glad I even have the gun and loads I have at the moment given the mess the world is in now. My local gun shop has a brand new Colt M4 Carbine on the wall right now for sale. My next gun purchase that has the most priority is a handgun for concealed carry. I want to have a means for personal defense should something nasty, God forbid, break out in a local Walmart. If money is no object, 5.56/.223 ammo, at least in FMJ, can still be ordered online. There's a shortage now but it's not extinct.

 

[DB is Here]

My take away on this thread is:

1) Don't complicate the simple.

2) Buy a quality AR, then learn it's manual of arms and how to proficiently operate it.

3) Listen to the advice already given.

I'm out.

 

[bbbass]

Not gonna address ammo except for in one regard, use of AR ammo inside a home may give rise to concerns about over-penetration. Some say that is bunk, that AR bullets will flip or tumble when they hit a wall, but actual studies of this have shown that regardless of any tumbling, AR bullets will go thru several interior walls and right on out the exterior. Therefore, there have been suggestions about using hunting rounds for AR Home Defense. Pointed Soft Point. I'd stay away from varmint rounds, but some guys say they will still hurt plenty.

As for what AR to buy for:
1.Home defense
2. Riot control
3. Invasion

IMO the longest barrel that would be practically useful when maneuvering inside a home would be 16" due to walls and corners. This is what I built for my daughter and should be useful for all of the above.

That said, I personally use an AR pistol (with cheek brace... yes it's legal) with a 10.5" barrel for home defense vs my Mossberg 500 Combat shotgun. it is very maneuverable. I like having 20rds available, even tho statistically i might not need that many rds, I plan for any and all contingencies. This weapon should also be useful for perimeter/street defense against the mob. If for tyranny, I'd switch to a battle rifle.

 

[GoatFarmer]

Not gonna address ammo except for in one regard, use of AR ammo inside a home may give rise to concerns about over-penetration. Some say that is bunk, that AR bullets will flip or tumble when they hit a wall, but actual studies of this have shown that regardless of any tumbling, AR bullets will go thru several interior walls and right on out the exterior. Therefore, there have been suggestions about using hunting rounds for AR Home Defense. Pointed Soft Point. I'd stay away from varmint rounds, but some guys say they will still hurt plenty.

As for what AR to buy for:
1.Home defense
2. Riot control
3. Invasion

IMO the longest barrel that would be practically useful when maneuvering inside a home would be 16" due to walls and corners. This is what I built for my daughter and should be useful for all of the above.

That said, I personally use an AR pistol (with cheek brace... yes it's legal) with a 10.5" barrel for home defense vs my Mossberg 500 Combat shotgun. it is very maneuverable. I like having 20rds available, even tho statistically i might not need that many rds, I plan for any and all contingencies. This weapon should also be useful for perimeter/street defense against the mob. If for tyranny, I'd switch to a battle rifle.

It therefore seems I'm well-armed right now with my police pump and fowl loads for most any type of home invasion that might occur. Burglary is the chief motive for such invasions. Am I well-prepped for a mob attack, an act of tyranny, a riot, a civil war or an invasion by a foreign army? Who knows. I really don't worry about that or give it much thought. Do some folks go out on the market for a certain weapon out of paranoia? I've been bombarded with many YouTube videos lately that seem to claim "you need" an AR type weapon. I don't have a disposable income right now so I can't run out and get any gun I fancy or others claim "I need" anyway. For money considerations, I have to give a concealable handgun priority right now. I have the Smith & Wesson Shield 9mm in mind.This is considerably more affordable than any new AR and an AR won't fit in my fanny pack anyway. I'm on a dealer waiting list for the 9 Shield EZ with thumb safety. I do hear a lot on the news in modern times about "mass shootings" in public places so it seems prudent to pack a pistol away from home these days.I worry more about some nut at the local Walmart than an army coming to my door.

 

[bbbass]

It therefore seems I'm well-armed right now with my police pump and fowl loads for most any type of home invasion that might occur. Burglary is the chief motive for such invasions. Am I well-prepped for a mob attack, an act of tyranny, a riot, a civil war or an invasion by a foreign army? Who knows.

Well, you asked what AR would be best for those.

I wouldn't use fowl loads, but there are many that do. You can look online and see that fowl loads don't have much penetration thru clothes and breastbone unless you are using #5 or #4 high base. The typical target/dove #8 load is woefully underpowered against humans unless at very short distances (under 10') IMO.

 

[DB is Here]

I wouldn't use fowl loads, but there are many that do.

I concur. Nothing like 00 Buck with (9) 9MM round balls to do your bidding.

 

[WAYNO]

Deleted. Apparently there is no acceptable answer.

 

[GoatFarmer]

Well, you asked what AR would be best for those.

I wouldn't use fowl loads, but there are many that do. You can look online and see that fowl loads don't have much penetration thru clothes and breastbone unless you are using #5 or #4 high base. The typical target/dove #8 load is woefully underpowered against humans unless at very short distances (under 10') IMO.

The fowl loads I have right now are Federal Heavy Field Loads. Game-Shok stamped. 12 ga, 2 3/4", 1 1/8 oz, #4, 3 1/4 dram eq, 1,255 fps MV.
I visit my brother's apartment sometimes and take my shotgun there for security. I want effective 12 ga. loads that won't likely penetrate thin
walls of apartments. I was told that many police officers have #4 in their shotguns for public safety concerns about penetration. Is there a better 12 ga. load
for apartment settings? Is #1 Buck better choice? This article says even #4 may pack too much punch for thin-wall dwellings:

What are the best 12-gauge shotgun shells for apartment home defense? - Quora

.

 

[bbbass]

I was told that many police officers have #4 in their shotguns for public safety concerns about penetration. Is there a better 12 ga. load
for apartment settings? Is #1 Buck better choice?

I don't think so. I like #4 for home defense. #1 buck may still have more penetration that desirable in an apt setting. But #4 will get the job done.