There are some things I don't understand well about firearms and some helpful input would be much appreciate...

[Ura-Ki]

I would spend my Varmint Wackin budget on a Savage Bolt rifle in .223/ 5.56, and defence budget on a Colt or simmiler AR in the length and twist combo that serves your needs best!
If you can find an older Remington 700 or Ruger M-77 in .223, those would make fantastic varmint rifles at affordable prices, leaving room for a good scope which is arguably even more important then the rifle in the squeaky pig towns!

 

[Ura-Ki]

Check out our classifieds section here for a good varmint bolt action rifle, and if you don't find one you like, you can run a "want to buy" add here for free!
Same with an AR, we always have a metric ton of ARs posted for sale, some at a decent price even!

 

[Joe13]

People might think themselves hot s__ for owning an AR-15 but one has to consider practical uses for this rifle as well. A Corvette is a hot-s__ automobile but it's expensive and about as practical as udders on a bull.

I don't think owning anything makes you cool. People buy stuff for whatever reason they fee like.

My wife loves to shoot my AR and she shoots it very well. That alone makes it useful to me because she will go out shooting more with me....

This Is all opinion, everyone owns different guns for different reasons and my use for an AR or any gun can vary vastly from yours.

It mostly sounds like you want the cool factor of 'Colt AR-15' on yours because AR's can be had for much less then $1100.

I have a 1981 police trade in Rem 870 as well but wouldn't hand it to my wife for home defense, and I would rather have 30 rounds in the mag then 7-8.

no offense meant but some of your comments are very leading and sound like a gathering thread for why someone doesn't need an AR.

I know you have stated otherwise but when you're able to offend probably one of the coolest and most mellow people on this forum you might be going about whatever it is you want the wrong way...

just my 2¢

 

[Joe13]

Here's a thread for you to browse, I think it's what Was referred to

What’s the appeal of AR rifles?

I’m a rifle newbie. I purchased my first pistol last year for home defense and have since really started to enjoy target shooting, etc. I just purchased a CMMG Banshee 10mm that’s classified as a pistol but it certainly resembles an AR. Trying to understand the appeal of 5.56 / AR rifles...

www.northwestfirearms.com

 

[GoatFarmer]

I don't think owning anything makes you cool. People buy stuff for whatever reason they fee like.

My wife loves to shoot my AR and she shoots it very well. That alone makes it useful to me because she will go out shooting more with me....

This Is all opinion, everyone owns different guns for different reasons and my use for an AR or any gun can vary vastly from yours.

It mostly sounds like you want the cool factor of 'Colt AR-15' on yours because AR's can be had for much less then $1100.

I have a 1981 police trade in Rem 870 as well but wouldn't hand it to my wife for home defense, and I would rather have 30 rounds in the mag then 7-8.

no offense meant but some of your comments are very leading and sound like a gathering thread for why someone doesn't need an AR.

I know you have stated otherwise but when you're able to offend probably one of the coolest and most mellow people on this forum you might be going about whatever it is you want the wrong way...

just my 2¢

I have already acknowledged that the AR-15 is a good defense gun for those who are not particularly strong as women, disabled folks and old folks. Please pardon me if anything I stated was taken in distaste. Believe me, I'm trying to find every reason under the sun that the AR-15 is indeed practical in order to counter those who would want to ban it. I'm compiling a list for all the practical reasons to own an AR-15. I want to learn how to be an ambassador for the AR-15 and defend it, but I don't want to lie to people and say it's something it really isn't.

 

[GoatFarmer]

20" AR-15 rifle?
16" M4 Carbine/LE6920 civilian variant?

Which weapon will work better for when "s__ hits the fan"?

Riots?
Foreign invasions?

Is an M4 carbine harder to hold and control under fire than the 20" rifle version of an AR platform?

The M4 appears to have shorter handguards that don't allow the non-firing hand to stretch out as far as on a standard AR-15 to grasp them while firing.
The M4 makes me think the non-firing arm might feel a bit cramped.

I would think the carbine is weildier in tight places than the rifle.

This soldier seems to be grasping the weapon at the front sight base with a gloved hand. Oddly, the NCO is referring to this weapon as a "gun" several times. That is something that was no-no to refer to an M16 as. It could be that the army might recognize the M4 as a "submachine gun".

 

[Stomper]

No, AR carbine variants are not more difficult to control than rifles. As stated in other threads on this topic, each variant has its purpose with advantages and short comings. A "blade stance" is fine on the range, but combative shooting techniques have changed since the 80's & 90's, and a more front facing stance is used.

I own several configurations of AR's from 11.5" up to 20", and I select the best one for the anticipated conditions I may encounter.

Home defense and "sub/urban encounters" 11.5" all day long...

The "Buzz-Saw Twins"... Fang-1 and Fang-2

 

[GoatFarmer]

No, AR carbine variants are not more difficult to control than rifles. As stated in other threads on this topic, each variant has its purpose with advantages and short comings.

I own several configurations of AR's from 11.5" up to 20", and I select the best one for the anticipated conditions I may encounter.

Home defense and "sub/urban encounters" 11.5" all day long...

The "Buzz-Saw Twins"... Fang-1 and Fang-2
View attachment 735529

One of these days soon, I'll have to see if I can't rent an M4 at the range and try one out.

 

[Stomper]

One of these days soon, I'll have to see if I can't rent an M4 at the range and try one out.

It isn't any different than shooting any other barrel length (ie 16") AR with carbine length hand-guards and gas system.

 

[GoatFarmer]

It isn't any different than shooting any other barrel length (ie 16") AR with carbine length hand-guards and gas system.

I'm wondering how an M4 feels mounted to my shoulder as compared with the M16's I was familiar with. The M4 also has a collapsible and adjustable stock unlike my US issued M16 in the army. I would think the sight radius is shorter on the carbine also. I don't think AR-based barrels shorter than 16" are civilian legal.

The muzzle velocity of an M16A2 was 3,250 fps. For the M4 it's 2,970 fps.

 

[titsonritz]

Personally I've move from the M4 style setup in favor 16" or 14.5" with a mid-length gas system and A5 RE for a primary arm.

 

[Ura-Ki]

I gotta agree completely with @Stomper on the 11.5 inch Carbine for CQB and other nasty not nice things! It's what I carried daily for almost 20 years professionally, and it's damn hard to beat. If I need more then it can provide effectively, I go to a 7.62X51 Battle Rifle, and get er done!
As far as being hard to control, No, not at all, in fact, they seem to balance quite natural at the mag well, and are super slick for shoot and scoot type situations, which as a civilian, is imperative!


Loves me some retro, Early Colt Delta 607 Light, simple, fast as hell, and handy! 500 Meters is not out of reach here ether!

 

[DunRanull]

Got my M-forgery Colt a few years ago, paid thru my left nostril for it too, the just before the prices dropped into the toilet. Even so I got me a Colt. FWIW.....

 

[Ura-Ki]

Early MK-18 Mod ZERO ain't a bad way to go ether, if one just HAS to have a M-4, that's what I would rock!
The true beauty of the AR is it's ease of building EXACTLY what and how YOU want it! Want a Retro look with the M-4 spec barrel and feed ramps, no problem, want the fast 1/7 twist and the wylde chamber, easy, order up your barrel and go! Furniture, hell, there is more available options then all others combined!

 

[Stomper]

I'm wondering how an M4 feels mounted to my shoulder as compared with the M16's I was familiar with. The M4 also has a collapsible and adjustable stock unlike my US issued M16 in the army. I would think the sight radius is shorter on the carbine also. I don't think AR-based barrels shorter than 16" are civilian legal.

The muzzle velocity of an M16A2 was 3,250 fps. For the M4 it's 2,970 fps.

Muzzle velocity out of an 11.5" is 2.7k - 2.8k fps.... more than enough for its intended conditional uses. As for the collapsible stock, it took me a while to get used to the CAR15 that I used after having used an A1 for years, but as with anything training gets you used to it, and I prefer them (in general) over the fixed A1/A2 stocks.

As for the rest... don't over analyze it.

 

[po18guy]

I lean toward 7.62X51, as the sale and use of various body armors is on the rise. It seems unlikely that any of us would have to wage a protracted battle requiring 200-300 rounds on person.

 

[Ura-Ki]

I hated the full size rifle, if i'm going to carry a rifle, I want it in 7.62, otherwise, it was a waste of effort for nominal gain!
Keep in mind, My mission required a very small and light carbine, and didn't normally see me on the ground very long, and running and gunning was of secondary to my prime mission! As such, I was ether setting it down with in easy reach, but out of the way, or slinging it over my back on it's single point, out of my way while I worked, and this is why I really grew so fond of the little Carbines! When I needed the rifle(s) one or more were always near by, or at least a radio call away, and when needed, the Carbine went over my back and usually stayed there! When they finally forced the M-4 on us, we gave them up kicking and screaming, but eventually learned to deal with them, and while not as slick as our older carbines, we made them work! We did appreciate the improvements in the M-4's but all the crap they attached to them made any gains moot until we "Lost them" and got back to work properly kitted out!

 

[Ura-Ki]

I lean toward 7.62X51, as the sale and use of various body armors is on the rise. It seems unlikely that any of us would have to wage a protracted battle requiring 200-300 rounds on person.

Not only that, but a hit to the plates from a 7.62 is gonna hurt a whole lot, lots more then the 5.56 will, and while both will hurt, the 7.62 will likely end the fight with a single hit to the plates, maybe even permanently!

 

[Flymph]

I'm just going to assert one thing, listen to the pros on this.
Now about them fireballs...

 

[American123]

I lean toward 7.62X51, as the sale and use of various body armors is on the rise. It seems unlikely that any of us would have to wage a protracted battle requiring 200-300 rounds on person.

What armor currently is defeated by 7.62x51 that is also not defeated by 5.56? Rifle rated armor is killed by speed over it's threat rating or bullet alloy outside of it's threat rating. Any pistol rated armor will get easily pierced by any centerfire rifle cartridge generally speaking.

Seems to me if people are that worried about engaging armored attackers practicing shooting where the armor isn't is a consistent winner. Waists, and necks/faces generally are never armored even when people are wearing armor, obviously legs too, but I was focusing more on upper body.

Regarding the OP's question about short AR vs long AR. The answer is "yes" - 20inch barrel ballistically wins compared to 16" or 10.5/11.5" AR - but when it comes to working in short distances like that of inside a house, shorter has it's advantages. Sure you can train to be proficient with longer guns in short distances, but you'll be fighting the curve. It's physics - shorter overall length allows for maneuvering faster because less mass is moving less distance, same reason you can move a short stick through the air faster than a longer one.

If you go from being used to a 20 inch to try using a 10.5, you'll be amazed how nimble it seems. Noise will be considerably increased too if that is a factor for you.

If I was fighting outside at extended distances, I would want the velocity of a longer barrel (and a scope). Inside house distances - short rifle is basically made for that. I'd say get one and try it, I have been happy with Palmetto, but many other brands offer short AR's too. Take your pick.