The reaction I give...

[Frank RW]

Unless you're trying to thread a needle in the middle of a gunfight, gross vs fine motor skill discussion is nothing more than mind numbing garbage.

It's all about training the brain properly...

I agree. Fortunately I've never needed to, nor likely ever will, be in a gunfight.

Training gets me closer, but I'll never be fully prepared for anything. Staying out of trouble's way helps me stay alive the most I believe.

Anyway, thanks for the explanation. Not sure that particular angst was worthy of a thread tho'.

 

[Frank RW]

The same response I give, when I see this goofy thing...

View attachment 988795

here here. otherwise fine instructors are still using it (wrong). sorta like "hey, that's what so-n-so taught me, it's good info." and never look into it any further. :/

 

[Cerberus Group]

When I make posts such as this, I stand back and watch responses for awhile...and amongst them is always one person doing their Biden impression by posting something that has nothing to do with the subject matter at hand.

The goofy chart posted above is an example of not testing what is presented. Let's take finger placement on the trigger, it doesn't matter where the finger lands on the trigger, it is a training issue.

Rob Leatham, multi world champ competition pistol shooter slaps the trigger with every round fired. His finger comes off the trigger and touches the forward portion of the trigger guard, then comes back onto the trigger. But that is how he trained himself. He honed that so well, the attitude of the pistol does not change with every round fired. He trained himself.

I've had small handed females try to shoot double stack 45 cal Glocks, but for them it's like grabbing a 2x4. They were taught to make sure the finger was on the trigger at a certain spot, problem is...their overall grip suffered. The first initial shot was good, but subsequent rounds fired were dismal as they couldn't manage recoil. Never sacrifice grip for trigger finger placement.

How do people with no index finger shoot a pistol...training. How do people who lose limbs get to function and be mobile again...they train.

How did Jimi Hendrix, a right handed person learn to play a guitar that was made for a left handed person...trained himself.

How does one get to the point where Fine vs Gross motor skill becomes a myth...train. Accept nothing less for yourself in any area of your life.

 

[WillametteWill]

I agree with many points here. Proper training is key. Training the mind and body so the proper neural pathways are connected is vital. I also agree that concepts should be challenged and not just accepted as, "we've always done it that way."

Training though is very different for those who throw thousands of pounds of lead downrange each year compared to normal mortals who own guns and want to feel competent but their round count (especially with the shortages over the past year) is maybe 50 rounds a month. In my experience these folks benefit more from focusing on good, consistent grip, boringly consistent finger placement on the trigger and press, manipulations until they are very comfortable with the firearm, practicing sight alignment and picture, you know...boring stuff.

My point is this group of good folks will never be Leatham, Hendrix, Tiger, etc., nor do they wish to be. I understand how Leatham "pulls" the trigger but this will not work for nearly anyone. Just like the way I personally grip a handgun is not how I teach students (I have permanent damage to my wrist and short fingers). Rob fired more rounds in a week than retired cops I know have fired in the past 15 years and they think they practice enough and are prepared!

Agree, there are numerous tradeoffs (like the aforementioned example of grip over trigger finger location). But some are just going to be more difficult to overcome, like playing a guitar left handed. Some are much easier.

I'll sign off with this example. A known trainer commented that students have problems with grip safeties on S&W EZ series guns because of grip strength and that shooters with low strength should avoid them (as I understand). The grip safety on these firearms is just over one pound. This is not a strength issue, exactly to your point, it is a training issue. I've had a few students that initially had some issues with these, but with minimal training they were fine (and the triggers on these guns are superb, btw).

I enjoy the perspectives here.

 

[Cerberus Group]

The boring stuff honed razor sharp is what wins competitions, makes a shooter consistently accurate, and wins gunfights...hence my Run the Gun courses. The goal is drilling hard on the skills it takes to stay focused on the threat without being distracted by the platform...that can be done without firing a round, or very few. There are many ways to hone those skills by firing minimal rounds, but using a shot timer to gauge where you are, thus able to track progress.

Each shooter is one person, individual. An instructor can not cookie cutter the physicals onto each person. Anatomically speaking...we all have the same body parts, but there are many factors on how each of us use them. Age, physical condition, injury, surgery, birth defect, missing parts etc., all factor into one thing...we are individuals, and we all do not operate the same. It is paramount for an instructor to recognize such things and and develop the shooter as such.

Instructor vs Teacher. Instructor shows you how...teacher shows you the why.

My point of making this thread...angst...no...get people thinking...yes.

Training in any area of your life will make you better at what you want to do. How much time you spend doing it and how serious you are about improving in any area of your life will give you the outcome you desire in your performance.

Thus my signature line...

Don't give me excuses why you can't, give me reasons why you can.