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Firearms Training that gives the rest of us a bad name...

Discussion in 'Education & Training' started by Morpheus, Apr 18, 2014.

  1. Morpheus

    Morpheus Columbia Gorge Anyway, back on the farm.

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  2. tacticalgunner

    tacticalgunner Wilsonville The Man, The Myth, The Legend Bronze Supporter

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    That's just great, what a d-bag.
     
    forefathersrback likes this.
  3. Doc In UPlace

    Doc In UPlace Tacoma-ish Well-Known Member

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    It was 3 hours more than many people get here in WA. Our CPL requires an adult that has money and a clear record, nothing else.

    I think demonstrating proficiency and knowledge before being licensed is not a bad thing, to divert the thread a bit.
     
    desertmedic likes this.
  4. Kruejl

    Kruejl Hillsboro Moderator of the Coriolis effect Staff Member Gold Supporter Silver Supporter

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    I'm not sure what to say here. I had a WA State CPL for 10 years. Took a hunter's safety course when I was a young buck. Was a "Lifetime Member" at a well-known indoor range in Tacoma with literally thousands of rounds fired there without incident. And I had to take a class to get my OR CHL. Did it make me any "safer" or a "trained" concealed carrier. Not at all. Its kinda like when I took the MSF class when I was 22 (Motorcycle Safety Foundation". Sure, I got my endorsement easier but it didn't help me AT ALL with real world riding. That came with time and many, many miles.

    I digress though, cheating the system is still cheating.
     
    GrpCapMandrake likes this.
  5. OLDNEWBIE

    OLDNEWBIE State of Flux Well-Known Member

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    I'm surprised the low level govt. clerk was "A", sharp enough to catch that and "B", cared enough to disrupt her routine when she alerted her supervisors.

    Guys like this are going to ruin it for everybody. Now the spotlight is on these classes. Expect what should be a strait forward basic informative class to morph in to a bureaucratic PITA, with arbitrary standards of proficiency requirements decided by politicians who don't know the difference between a magazine and a clip.
    Of course the cost will increase as well.
     
    Gootz likes this.
  6. Sgt Nambu

    Sgt Nambu Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    How hard would it be to do your job for eight hours every week or two? Guys just a lazy POS.
     
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  7. Callidus98

    Callidus98 Portland Member

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    I agree that that instructor is hurting our cause and should have the book thrown at him.

    But I would add that the responsibility still remains with us as students to recognize if we are proficient enough with our weapons to carry them. When choosing training we need to do some research to understand the class and instructor(s) and honestly assess our own skills. Hopefully the student that pointed a loaded pistol at his face (according to the article) went out and got more training. If you haven't mastered trigger control shooting from unorthodox positions may be fun but it won't make you a better shooter.
     
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  8. ocarolan

    ocarolan Portland, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Another veteran who thinks we owe him a living, and he is above the law. Not cool.
     
    Nick Burkhardt likes this.
  9. Doc In UPlace

    Doc In UPlace Tacoma-ish Well-Known Member

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    If there were a method to 'fast track' a candidate right into the final exam and live fire exercise, it would accomplish the same goals without the 8-hour rigmarole.

    Those not sufficiently experienced and proficient to successfully challenge the course deserve the full boat experience, as do the fellow citizens who are assured by the licensing criteria that certified license holders are minimally qualified.
     
  10. Thebastidge

    Thebastidge 10411 NE Fourth Plain Blvd Vancouver WA 98662 Well-Known Member

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    I don't see that his being a veteran is particularly related to his dishonesty, nor do I see veterans assuming anyone owes them more than they were promised when they signed up.
     
  11. The Heretic

    The Heretic Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Agreed, some of the "students" have more experience and training than some of the trainers.

    I was a federal LEO for 3+ years, I had shoot/no shoot training with simulations, building clearing training, arrest techniques training, and of course various safety training courses, been shooting and hunting for 45 years and so on.
     
  12. ZA_Survivalist

    ZA_Survivalist Oregon AK's all day.

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    The article disgusted me on a myriad of levels:

    False flag sting operation to shut down yet another CC instructor.

    The wording *"allowed" citizens to CC since 2003

    *Madatory 140
    "qualifying practice rounds"

    Trumping up charges for an illegal structure because they couldnt find anything else..?

    And more..

    While there is a need for folks who are seeking to CC and better understand the state laws and responsibilities a firearm requires all I got from the article is that the county wanted to micromanage his operation and has issues with folks attaining thier god given right to arm themselves (not a permission slip) quickly and without unnecessary bureaucratic red tape.

    Its one thing if he is/was cheating the person(s) who paid $X for the class and certification, its another if he could recognize a shooters skill level who may have decided to finally get their CHL because all the GD unconstitutional county/city ordinances
    (like here in Oregon)
    Perhaps he saw the vet was trained and didnt bother with the usual unconstitutional permission slip run around.

    Why should a person who has been involved in the firearms community and shooting their whole life be subjected to the same entry level baby training a novice would..
    When he stated "you look like you know what you're doing" couldnt that have been genuine?
    Especially with that useless mandatory 140 round "test" what are the requirements for that?

    Is it like Oregons turd of a bill that was going to require the same useless thing?.. That had so much grey area they just gave up because the writer of the bill understood nothing of firearms, their types, calibers, recoil, body type and strength when handling said mandatory X-amount of rounds on what ever platform the instructor had or chose.

    I cant take this article at face value.. It seems to be a skewed opinion of something that may or may not have been wrong. For me to get heated at an instructor because the author sides with Leos and wrote it as such is ludicrous..
     
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  13. CParkerShoot

    CParkerShoot Mt. Hood Parkdale, Oregon New Member

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    I have a responsibility in training clients in CHL courses as mandated by the issuing authority. I couldn't qualify every student as experienced or inexperienced when they attend the minimum course standards required to be taught. Everyone in my classes has to participate, process and discuss the responsibility , with in the time a course is recommended to be taught. I recognize personally how much experience each person has, and I understand a lot of the course is a repeat of the basics that one may have learned in their past experience's, when they entered into shooting sports. We all had to start some where.
    If a person can be recognized as less informed, I will recommend they try taking some courses to help them feel more comfortable and gain the KNOWLEDGE, SKILL and ATTITUDE necessary in firearm safety, Shooting, Cleaning and Storing their firearm. Many have experiences in law, military, scouting, or family tradition, and I tend to try and focus the subject matter they are struggling with by involving their classmates (you know the kind, the "been there, done that" shooter), to help move us all through in brief discussion and because we all have egos, I would never single out the one with more or less experience, but treat everyone as equals. Sometimes it may be redundant for some, but it does give everyone paying for the services, a equal learning experience.
    I also have courses I teach in Hunter Education that are funded by The U.S. Fish and Wildlife, which helps fund the State my Certification is endorsed by. There is no discrimination if you had a firearm lesson in the past, or your new to the Shooting Sports. If a guardian brings a 7 year old student, it is my discretion to ask that the guardian be present to help interpret the information. I may even have to read the test and take the answers from the young student verbally. They may not read, or have the ability to write as well. That discretion may mean I ask that Student / Guardian team to stay and study after the rest of the class has completed the course. A consideration like that is a fair and even platform the other students can appreciate so we an all move through the material at a pace that keeps us on time for the amount of material we review together. I do not get paid to provide the material and I do the extra time required to teach the course above and beyond the traditional pace for that course.
    As far as the national platform most trainers are certified by, and that is a discretionary industry. I prefer to teach the curriculum in its entirety. Sure my course instruction isn't for every one, but everyone who is looking to get a Carry permit will be individual in their needs for one. So I ask everyone to hang in there while we move through it. I may offer a live fire portion of the course, incorporating the courses fundamentals, and invariably the class room and live fire portion brushes off the dust, or refreshes many whom " been there, done that"!
    Most trainers for CC or CHL course are certified in Basic Pistol and maybe the only certification they have to teach the diverse students with or with out experience. It simply is Money driven, with many trainers on there own hooks, more concerned and invest in the training which is great for the student. While other instructors are employees of schools and make a wage plus a percentage of the take as long as they uphold to the standards the company requires.
    One thing is fact, all trainers are individually certified, not the company and those credentials can be revoked at anytime. A company may hire and provide training in house, by their Certified Instructor, but that trainer was Certified Individually and solely by a Training counselor, or another instructor whom uses the candidate in at least two courses as an associate or assistant and would have been logged and credited for those courses he or she assisted in. In house or with a private instructor, we all learned a curriculum and sometimes there are people like this guy, who get kind of carried away, and ruin it for so many innocent of taking his word as gospel. Knowledge is something no one can take, but a certified instructor is subject to his conduct in and out of class, and that conduct is revocable if there is any issue of unlawful conduct.
    Utah will take it away, and so will the NRA for there portion, not to mention any state accreditations, county or city.
    C Parker
    Good Luck finding the fit for your CC or CHL education..
     
  14. CParkerShoot

    CParkerShoot Mt. Hood Parkdale, Oregon New Member

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    Hello
    You would be the ideal student, from reading your post, and If I instructed you I would have enjoy having you assist my course. I became a CHL Instructor In Oregon only after I took the Course, and as I took it I also took the Multi-state version at the same time. The instructor was so good in his delivery that I called him the following week and asked him how he became an instructor and what steps he took.

    Well I never applied at the time for the Oregon CHL , but I did take the Utah course at the same time and I applied for the Multi-state. They eventually sent me a card and that was the beginning of a journey I enjoy to this day.

    I grew up in a reloading room where members of the US Border Patrol National Shooting Team worked out many of the issues it takes to be competitive. I learned to shoot some targets, but the real education was the traditions my grandfather had foster in hunting and shooting sports in general. By the time I was old enough to get my Hunter Safety card and carry my first rifle on my parents hunt, or my first deer hunt with my parents, I realized education in shooting sports is vast and ever growing.

    So taking any course I pay to get a certificate so I can pay a state, or county to issue me another certificate, and so on, Means I better get something out of it. It isn't a given that everyone taking the courses so they can apply, will get the next certificate, or in this example a CHL for Oregon, or a Utah card that allows me to CC in Washington, Idaho etc. In my case it wasn't having the " I have been there, and done that attitude",
    but the ever changing laws, the many experiences of others in my classes I took and how they learned what they learned and pass that to me, as I did for them the same way in those classes. Sometimes a person doesn't get past the back round, and that doesn't mean they didn't know something about the content of the course, but that they weren't informed on technicalities of the laws that prevented them in there history for being able to have the privilege to CC. But they took the class to get a certificate to apply for that next step, or the goal they were exercising as equals of everyone who they educated themselves with.

    You should come to a course and act an assistant for me. If you do that twice in two different courses I can test you and you can become a certified NRA Instructor, more than likely this would be the basic pistol certification, which is the primary step toward CHL and CC Instruction. Since you know everything already, it doesn't matter to me, because as an Instructor, we tweek the class to meet the needs of the students but we are still going to use the same format and we all will go over the same material, redundant to you or not.
    There is no difference between you, the most experienced, and the student who's never had a firearm in the hands, except maybe the one the dealer they bought one from handed them. Don't even know what actions they have or how it works, not to mention the cartridges, all the types of rifles and actions, and safety rules , including the basic the three, Which you must know, so I wont go over them here.

    You are a valuable resource to Education and Fostering that Skill, Knowledge and Attitude, even a fair to excellent instructor uses to convey these concepts. Please become an Educator. I would be more than happy to help you get started. I am sure your more skilled in firearms than I, but I have the Certifications to help you In Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Personal Protection Outside of the Home, and I am a Range Safety Officer.
    I can help, but don't have the authority to sign you off in Hunter Education in Oregon, although as a Certified Hunter Education Instructor for the State of Oregon, I can log your assistance Officially and you will be halfway farther along than I was to becoming Certified. And as a Certified Concealed Firearm Instructor for the State of Utah, I would allow you to come to the course and assist my company with the required Firearms Familiarity portion of the required Curriculum all instructors must verify all students are competent and able to recite and perform.

    I have courses coming up near VanCouver/Camas this month and I would waive the fee if you would like to assist me. There will be at least 4 other NWFA.Com members assisting so they can become educators and I like to think anyone involved in shooting sports should be certified to teach the skill, knowledge foster the right attitude in firearm safety, which whether your in combat or just a child shooting a BB gun in the back yard as your neighbor, might wanna know. Just saying...so do not hesitate on this offer, and if you can't for what ever reason, this offer stands because in a real world, your many miles are valuable to the many who have yet to take their first steps.
    Sincerely
    Clint Parker
     
    rick benjamin likes this.
  15. Kruejl

    Kruejl Hillsboro Moderator of the Coriolis effect Staff Member Gold Supporter Silver Supporter

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    A personal attack via a very lengthy post that I quite honestly had to read multiple times. In all your ramblings I at least was able to pick up that I somehow "know everything" and am "more skilled" than you or apparently anyone else. Your words, not mine. I never even gave an inclination that I was somehow better than anyone on this site. As a matter of fact I had the guts to post openly about a close call that I got shredded for by most here. I had to go back and read my OP in this thread as your post had me confused and unsure about what I typed.

    After I read, re-read and re-re-read everything I can say without a doubt that nothing I typed was out of line, holier-than-thou or otherwise. So please find a better way of expressing your beliefs in a more professional manner. That being said, enjoy your education and the continued education of others. I, for one, appreciate members like you that offer such a service. But unlike you, I won't call you out in front of others. No matter how easy a target you might be.
     
  16. CParkerShoot

    CParkerShoot Mt. Hood Parkdale, Oregon New Member

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    Hey Kruejl,
    I guess your not interested in the work with helping us train responsible and safe community of shooting sports enthusiasts? just guessing, but take your time, the offer stands.
    I am sure you understand what I wanted to offer and an interpretation like yours is interesting.
    I interpreted your thoughts that I read and felt I should write you and instead of firing you up to save hundreds of dollars in training fees, and help you foster your skills and knowledge toward the whole shooting community you take another stance on my stance to your take on trainers.
    Thanks for that appreciation and realizing that its not every trainer that gets out and puts themselves out like I have to give you something for nothing, but your time of course, which is valuable. there are so many folks at all ages that read things on here members write, and if they are considering to get education in shooting sports they might consider reading this section. I wouldn't want a fledging interest in furthering their knowledge and attitude by miss interpreting an opinion and then think, what the point of training if I can get anything further out of it if I know what I know now.
    My input to you and your response back, kind of seems like we both salvage those folks interests.
    Thanks for that. And thanks for responding, even though you had to reread my thoughts twice or three times, I hope this was less difficult and drives our point.
    Not every ones personalities, egos and experiences are a good fit, but if you pay for a course, your stuck with your own impression of how the info was presented.
    If your offered a free course or two in your case you can take that to the certifying level with my approval and become an instructor in a discipline, and taylor it to give what you feel you had missed out on...offer stands. and I will message you my contac info. and the course dates to attend. I appreciate your time as well!
    Thanks
    Clint Parker
     
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  17. Joe13

    Joe13 NW of Vancouver Opinionated & Blunt Bronze Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    I don't know you Krue, but after spending the better part of the day with Clint this last weekend at the clean n shoot, I can honestly say that you misunderstood his post.

    The guy is not malicious, he is genuinely exuberant about helping others.

    My guess is that his "underhanded" compliment about your skills was his way of humbly accepting you at face value and not questioning your statements about thousands of rounds without incident.

    Give the man a chance. He is here trying to help. If we were all certified instructors, just think of all the people we know personally that we could certify and continue the knowledge train.

    I know that posts are sometimes misconstrued because of the lack of body language and vocal fluctuations, this would be a good opportunity to take what he says at face value and don't look for malice when there most likely is none.


    I could be way wrong, but I think not.
     
  18. Joe13

    Joe13 NW of Vancouver Opinionated & Blunt Bronze Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

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    I guess we were typing at the same time Clint =).

    Good morning and can't wait for those classes!!
     
  19. CParkerShoot

    CParkerShoot Mt. Hood Parkdale, Oregon New Member

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    ..Good Morning Joe,
    I just about logged out and saw you had commented on this fellows response to my offer.
    I do feel bad too that I made his mind dwell on what if's scenarios. I am always looking to turn the shooting communities stance on instruction. if everyone in my courses could come back and help me on a second course , we could have a good start on getting everyone into educating even the most timid of non shooters by just fostering the same things and attitudes we all did at the clean up.
    I thank you for your comment and I thanked him as well. actually I didn't look to see if that writer was a he or she either, and for me there is no need because firing a gun doesn't discriminate sexes. so I teach like that and I I try and treat everyone experienced or not as equals so we can move thru the material for every ones sake as I have explained even in casual conversation.
    Sorry to have to have you or anyone one else justify my true intentions. simply puit we can use a guy or gal like that in a course and I am sure that as I said will make that course stronger by emphasizing what they felt they didn't receive from the prior instruction.
    Feedback helps improve presentation and can be a positive for all.
    Gracias
    Joe and Kruejl
    sincerely Clint
     
  20. Kruejl

    Kruejl Hillsboro Moderator of the Coriolis effect Staff Member Gold Supporter Silver Supporter

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    I'm good. I guess when I read "Since you know everything already, it doesn't matter to me...." and "I am sure your more skilled in firearms than I" I'm just smart enough to smell the patronizing scent of a poster trying to make a point of discontent with what I've said, although long-winded and contrived. I'm an educated man, and as I said before I don't claim to know everything or quite frankly anything regarding firearms training.

    I digress. I'm also smart enough to appreciate the offer of continued education along with the sincerity of some of the statements made by Clint. For that, thank you.

    Let's just let this one go. As the old saying goes, "That dog won't hunt".

    Jason
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2014