The Poor Man's Sniper Rifle - in 2009 (Part One)

[jquirit]

Ah, so good for horizontal aim, but what about the vertical based on bullet drop? If I found a 1.5 MOA 30-30 Marlin carbine, it still wouldn't be worth much at 600 yards. It would not "put all of its rounds in a 9" circle" if we're talking about bulls eye. I don't know a conventional rifle which would.

By which that definition you're using (a perfectly trajectory out to 600 yards), there is no rifle out there that could ever do that. Everything you need to compensate for range, hence the existence of come-up/windage tables.

The example, and point I was trying to make, was via known distance (and using the known come-up to compensate for bullet drop which I had omitted, my bad) you'd be able to put a bullet downrange with pretty good certainty in a given target size. It's this ability to hit a specific target size that would help determine if something is accurate enough for the purpose intended.

raindog also touched upon a good point of lethality of the round once it covers that distance. I imagine there's people that could lob (using extreme drop compensation) .22LR rounds out to 500 yds. What damage they'd do is probably limited and really reduce the effectiveness of the round for the purpose it's being used for.

 

[Gunner3456]

By which that definition you're using (a perfectly trajectory out to 600 yards), there is no rifle out there that could ever do that. Everything you need to compensate for range, hence the existence of come-up/windage tables.

The example, and point I was trying to make, was via known distance (and using the known come-up to compensate for bullet drop which I had omitted, my bad) you'd be able to put a bullet downrange with pretty good certainty in a given target size. It's this ability to hit a specific target size that would help determine if something is accurate enough for the purpose intended.

raindog also touched upon a good point of lethality of the round once it covers that distance. I imagine there's people that could lob (using extreme drop compensation) .22LR rounds out to 500 yds. What damage they'd do is probably limited and really reduce the effectiveness of the round for the purpose it's being used for.

IMHO we're all saying the same thing. I agree with all you said. Of course no rifle has a flat trajectory, and at long ranges you need retained energy.

That's why I entered the conversation - retained speed and energy is as important a consideration as MOA. That's all I was trying to say in my clumsy way.

$.02

 

[torpedoman]

http://www.gswagner.com/ For the do it yourself guys this guy will give you pics and directions.Make your own sniper.

 

[speelyei]

this site may be of benefit:

snipercentral.com

With regard to previous posts: sub-MOA performance is assumed, both from the rifle and the shooter. If you're not consistently grouping less than an inch at 100 yards, and five inches at 500 yards, you're not shooting well enough, no matter what rifle you have in your hands.

 

[tac]

Does 1.5 MOA qualify as a sniper rifle? Every center fire rifle I own will beat that, including my Del-Ton AR-15.

I'm not intending to bash anything here, just curious.

$.02

Dear Mr Gunner3456 - in his post above mine, Mr RedDog is discussing military surplus rifles, many of which actually saw service as sniping rifles when suitably converted by the addition of a bit of loving care and attention by an armourer and some reasonable telescopic sights.

I simply added MY POV that the omission of the Swiss K31 needed to be addressed. This was a mass-produced military arm for one country for over 55 years, and is not to be snozen at. Unlike just about any of the rifles mentioned by Mr RedDog- the K31 is a proven tack-driver with its superb near-match performance issue ammunition, the famous [to some] GP11.

I'm not arguing about the fact that most modern commercially-produced rifles can shoot better - often way better - than 1.5MOA - as indeed they should for the money they cost. Add a good scope onto a gun that already shoots high-grade factory ammunition into 3/4 - 1/2MOA and you'll have a very effective 'sniping' rifle, whatever that is.

Modern definitions for sniping rifles are almost impossible to tie down, as other posters have noted - the dedicated, made-for-sniping rifle has been with us for a pretty long time, but I have to say that although many would hack it for the occasional counter-sniping police activity, most would fall by the wayside given the rough and tumble of real military surroundings - hence the rise of the ultra-expensive and purpose-built stuff like the Barrett and our own home-grown Accuracy International series - both makers enjoy wolrd-wide sales of their dedicated products.

however, I would still go to war with a good scope on my K31 - a look at some of the movies on YouTube should convince you, if nothing else. Iron-sighted 35% hits on an 18" gong at 1000 yards are nothing to be snozen at, and collecting a 174gr FMJ between the teeth, even at that range, would pretty much make your eyes water.

tac
K11
K31
K31-actioned target rifle
Krico 650SS

 

[Gunner3456]

Geez, did you guys see this other thread of a guy shooting long range with a Russian Mosin-Nagant 91/30? It looks like that might also (among others) be a good platform to start with. Seems like Coctailer has/had some mint examples of those for just over $100?

Link to thread.

 

[speelyei]

with the increased interest in "sniper" rifles, there is plenty of historical evidence to catalog rifles with a proven track record: sniper rifles of the world

Once familiar with the attributes of these rifles, it would be easy to see that there are many other rifles that could be modified or applied to the same role. Almost evey large manufacturer has jumped on the "sniper" bandwagon, some have been put into wide usage and some have not.

A lot of us are infatuated with the idea of snipers, but the fact of the matter is that most of the advances in rifle manufacture and reloading come from the civilian sector. Benchrest, F-Class, and other highly accurate shooting pursuits lead the way, and then military and law enforcement apply those advances to their specific needs.

 

[tac]

A lot of us are infatuated with the idea of snipers, but the fact of the matter is that most of the advances in rifle manufacture and reloading come from the civilian sector. Benchrest, F-Class, and other highly accurate shooting pursuits lead the way, and then military and law enforcement apply those advances to their specific needs.

You nailed it right there.

tac

 

[smonk]

I've gone to lots of gun stores, pawn shops and gun shows and I'm always amazed about the number of savage 110 bolt rifles out there for very little money. If you look carefully and are patient, you can still find them out there for around $200.00 Sometimes even with a scope! You can find them in 30-06, 7mm mag and 270 most often and these things will shoot! I think you could do a lot worse than a savage but of course any good hunting rifle would make a good sniper and I'm sure that makes the gun-grabbers tremble.

 

[OR4X4]

What happened to the results? This was a good read.

 

[Will]

A good read, my first hunting rifle was a inflied .303, it was a good rifle. Wish I could find another for cheap and shoot for fun.

 

[madcratebuilder]

One of the most accurate "sniper" rifles I have shot is the Swiss Zfk55. It does not fit in the "poor man's" category at 4k plus.
View attachment 200659

I have duplicated the Zfk's accuracy with in .25 moa with a K-31 ($225) a used Weaver K4 and mount, ($120). There are a few improvements you can make to the K31 that don't cost any money, so you are under $350 for a 400 yard rifle with moa capability. The 4X scope is the limiting factor on this rifle. Add a 6 or 10X scope and you can add several hundred yards.



One key to the Swiss accuracy is the quality of GP11 surplus ammo, it's match grade.

I would like to build a "sniper" based on a Yugo Mauser but it well cost more than a "poor mans" rifle. A Zark scope and mount run over $700. So you well have $1000+ invested. That money could build a 7.62 platform AR type rifle that should be able to hold .5 moa.

 

[motohead185]

well from a mil-surp stand point i would have to say that the Finnish and russian M91/30 are some of the most accurate rifles to date. That is if you can find one in good condition. Now for making it a "sniper rifle" i would have to say i would stick to benchrest F-class standards. Which is "To Hit a 15" target @ 1000 yards." So that means you have to shoot 1" groups or better at 100 yards. Seeing how the 7.62x54r can maintain 600+ ft-lbs of energy and is still about supersonic at 1000 yards. Of course that is with handloads.