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...the other big bore battle rifle...

Discussion in 'Preparedness & Survival' started by 7SFCW4, May 6, 2014.

  1. 7SFCW4

    7SFCW4 Out and About, Oregon Active Member

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    Don't get me wrong, it is decidedly unpleasant to be on the receiving end of the USGI .223 ball round, but...for my money the adult in the room needs to go big or go home. There are numerous .308 AR's on the market today, each vendor with their own version of proprietary. The only one that I am aware of that has not gone this route is Rock River. Their .308 AR's use standard FAL magazines (a big bonus). You can go mainstream: H&K G3 clone or FN-FAL. For me, the FAL is the hands down winner.

    Over the years, I have spent more time in South America than in CONUS, it is easy for a single soldier so go native and extend in country. I appreciated the no nonsense power of the .308 FAL over the Galil and M16A1 that proliferated, along with the AK/SKS variants in attendance. Reliability, ease of maintenance, no-carrier tilt operation, adjustable gas system, the list is long. It is not light, it is not an M-14, it is not an AR-10, it is not a .300 Blackout, it is not a G3. It is a here to there and long range rifleman's rifle. Need to shoot thru a cinder block wall? No problem. Need to disable a vehicle? No problem. Need to defeat cover? No problem. Need to do all that at 600 meters and beyond? No problem.

    In a firefight, nothing makes folks pucker up like the deep throaty bark of a .308, except for the bloop of an M79 or the sharp crack of a grenade. Like NVG/NOD, they are a game changer. Of these, only the .308 is obtainable by the every man.

    The DSA FAL is a factory available, warrantied rifle that is always less expensive to purchase, own and maintain than anyone's AR-10 variant. Magazines are readily available and also less expensive, and more reliable than any manufacturers AR-10 variants.
     
    erudne, Loptr, SIG383 and 5 others like this.
  2. mosinguy1

    mosinguy1 out by the ocean Active Member

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    I like the 308 but when we started collecting preparing and such I really got hooked on 7.62x54 , a lil less then the .06 a Lil more then the 308. The Mosin and veper are both very accurate and ammo is a whole lot less then either of the above.
    I wish I could go back to Peru, my Dad was D.I.A there and the C-12 pilot
     
  3. AMProducts

    AMProducts Maple Valley, WA Jerk, Ammo Manufacturer Silver Supporter

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    I think there's a lot more to caliber and gun selection besides just caliber. I like the .308 and I love the FAL, it's a great rifle, and if I lived somewhere like the open midwest it would be very high on my list (I'm still not a fan of the AR-10/SR-25 platforms as there are too many compatibility issues). The main issue I have with it is in a short (16") platform you're losing a lot of velocity, and picking up a massive amount of muzzle blast. Does it inspire fear in your enemies? Hell yes it does, problem is it also makes you and everyone around you deaf. In a 20" configuration, you are now back to something that has significantly better capabilities in getting out there and saying hello. This is the benefit to a big rifle.

    That said, the .308 only gives you about another 200 yards of effective range over the .223 (from 600 to 800), and the ammo alone is 3x the weight. Which I think poses some logistical challenges you may need to meet. This is a major reason why I'm a huge detractor of the 7.62x39... it's all the weight of the .308, but half the range of the .223. Again, there are plusses and minuses to everything, and careful consideration should be applied.
     
  4. erudne

    erudne The Pie Matrix PPL Say Sleeping W/Your Rifle Is A bad Thing? Bronze Supporter

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    The "weight to gain ratio" has been studied and debated for well over 100 years, IMHO the 6.5-7mm bullet diameter seems to offer the best sectional density/weight ratio and case capacity (determined by propellant tech) seems to be stuck in the sub-243 Win case size. Only problem is: everyone wants a M-4 Carbine profile barrel, and longer barrels are more expensive to MFG.
    We can all get what we want, as long as we are willing to pay the price
     
  5. Doc In UPlace

    Doc In UPlace Tacoma-ish Well-Known Member

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    Best rifle I ever had was a Belgian made FAL-paratroop with the folding bolt retractor and side-folding stock. The Rolls-Royce of rifles.
     
  6. mrblond

    mrblond Salem OR Well-Known Member

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    While I have never shot a Fal, I have shot and own a SCAR 17 and if the Fal shoots anywhere near as well as the SCAR, id like to get one.
     
  7. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    I would never use a 223/556 to engage an enemy over 300yds
    Why would you? There MAY be enough energy with the 223/556, but there is plenty of energy out past 800yds with a 308 for social work.
    As stated the enemy will hear the difference in the 2. Standing behind cover,I would want my enemy to use a 556.If they have the 308,I'm moving on to find real solid bulkheads
    It's not just the 'effective range' it's what you have to shoot through.
    I'll pick the 7.62X51.

    BTW the FAL and G3 mags are not the same.
     
    erudne likes this.
  8. Velzey

    Velzey Estacada, Oregon Gunsmith Gunsmith Bronze Vendor Bronze Supporter

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    I could not agree with the op more! I do like the 18" model best, but that's just me. Without hearing protection my ears don't care if it's a .223 or .308... It's just freaking loud...

    Fully adjustable gas system with digest anything you feed it! Easy to clean and maintain.
    It's my family's go to rifle!

    Funny thing with FAL's... They multiply!!!

    I did something goofy to one of mine, I made it into a 35 Whelen Ackley improved..kits were cheap and I was bored..
     
    mjbskwim likes this.
  9. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    I bought 1,then I traded it to a friend,then another friend bought 1,then another,then another then a 4th.
    Had to stop going to FAL files lol.
    Now I have 1 of the 4 FALs but will be trading it at the Centrailia show.
    I like my g3 fathers (cetmes)
     
  10. 7SFCW4

    7SFCW4 Out and About, Oregon Active Member

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    Well Velzey, I know that bored itch to do something off kilter. I built up a few 300 Blackout M4 uppers when components and powder were more scarce than now, and now I can't figure out why I did it? Hand made 3K brass. The AA9 load is very nice, might make a good close in Elk round...maybe. Thats how thar .338 RUM got in my safee, too.
     
  11. ch139

    ch139 teh gehtoe Active Member

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    aaaaaahhhhhhh back in the day when kits were around $100 (with a barrel), Imbel kits and receivers receivers were still imported, DSA was building great stuff and ammo could be had for $0.11/rd - those were the days (M14 parts were dirt cheap from the CMP too).

    Nowadays, ammo is stupid expensive (for everything), DSA stuff isn't near the quality it was even 10-years ago. All those wonderful StG kits are no longer imported (nor are any others). Anyone remember "build parties?"

    Love the FAL and think its a great gun, but the days of inexpensive builds and cheap surplus ammo are long gone; taking one out and blasting at everything isn't economically feasible. Along those lines, as cool as the FALs (or other 308 semi-autos) are, one can do a lot with the money it takes to get into a FAL (or other semi 308) considering a good gun, mag, ammo and kit. If you already have one, or can afford it, thats great; they are beasts to be reckoned with to be sure. If not, see if you can get some trigger time with someone else's MBR for the enjoyment and familiarization. A big 308 semi just might not be for everyone these days. If you can afford it and you have other "things" squared away, by all means, you need a beastly MBR.

    ...to that end, the only one I have left, my first SBR from many moons ago. About the most useless thing I own.

    c04718b1.jpg
     
  12. 7SFCW4

    7SFCW4 Out and About, Oregon Active Member

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    ??...useless??never!!!
     
  13. Rix

    Rix Tacoma Active Member

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    My DSA SA58 is a heavy bubblegum.
    Follow up shots are kinda slow due to recoil. I need a new muzzle device.
    I'm sure not getting rid of it though.
     
  14. AMProducts

    AMProducts Maple Valley, WA Jerk, Ammo Manufacturer Silver Supporter

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    I've taken pigs out past 400 yards with .223 and all but one was a one-shot kill. This is an animal that's more heavily constructed, yet has anatomy that's quite similar to humans. I want a lighter firearm, and more bullets. I'm not really sure how you've come to the conclusion that 300 yards is the limit for lethality.

    Generally, when I look at it, there are two factors that are important to me: first, can I hit the target? If I can, it's really only a matter of how many more times I have to pull the trigger to make them not alive any more.

    The big problem I see with most, is that they're using military ball ammo for SHTF. I have no idea why, maybe it's a "it's good enough for the military, it's good enough for me", I have a wide variety of ammo, everything from barnes TSX-BT that I normally use for hunting, is also a great barrier defeating round. Same applies to the speer trophy bonded bearclaw, for lighter work, I have barnes MPG (55gr frangible core), and varmint grenade. Are they expensive? oh god yes, but if this is the ammo that needs to last me the rest of my life, do I really care what the cost is? No, I don't.
     
  15. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    Because I have 308 rifles for over 300yds
     
  16. AMProducts

    AMProducts Maple Valley, WA Jerk, Ammo Manufacturer Silver Supporter

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    Well, I guess that settles it, debate closed. :)

    I have .50BMG rifles for over 1000 yards... it still works pretty well inside 300. Also, the muzzle blast will deafen the enemy inside 50 yards, and everyone else will wet their pants. It might even set dry grass on fire.

    I'm not really following your line of logic here.
     
  17. 7SFCW4

    7SFCW4 Out and About, Oregon Active Member

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    ...I have my .338 RUM for 600 ~ 1300 meters, beyond that its Cheytac country, 420 grains of just nasty...
     
  18. Velzey

    Velzey Estacada, Oregon Gunsmith Gunsmith Bronze Vendor Bronze Supporter

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    Hmmmm I better get working on a single shot .338 Lapua FAL
     
  19. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    Let me go slow
    If I have a 308,why use a 556 for enemies over 300 yards,when ,said 308 will do a better job,carry more energy?
    55grain,150 grain? hmmm,which to use?
     
  20. AMProducts

    AMProducts Maple Valley, WA Jerk, Ammo Manufacturer Silver Supporter

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    I have a .308 also, but I don't want to carry two rifles. Even then I'm shooting a 62gr TSX-BT vs a 175SMK. My .308 holds 5 bullets, my AR can hold 100.

    The thing I don't want to get into here is every problem looking like a nail that can be solved with your hammer.

    One thing that factors in, if you want to put it in military terms is the difference in the conflicts between iraq and afghanstan. Iraq saw mostly urban conflict, most of the time you were shooting at targets between a few feet, and maybe 200 yards. Now you take the technology and apply it to the open poppy fields and wadis of afghanistan where your shooting distance starts at 500 yards and just goes up from there.

    I spend my time in to predominant environments: the woods, mountains and hills, and urban/sub-urban. In these conditions, a shot over 500 yards would pretty much never happen, as you just can't see that far, there's too many trees and buildings in the way. Out in the williamette valley... I would probably opt for something much bigger, as those open rolling plains lend themselves very well to shots over 1500 yards. Even then, I would probably still want a light carbine for close encounters.