Announcement The Atmosphere of Northwest Firearms - Changes

[that guy]

I'm fairly new to this forum (last 6 weeks) so I had no idea there had been this much strife on the issue.

I found this forum and enjoy coming here to talk about firearms related topics. There are 10 million other places online, including ones with strong pro-2A communities, where you can discuss politics, religion, etc. I want to read/discuss firearms topics in PNW, not whether some football dude stands or not. I've seen off-topic creep slowly eat up other online communities to the point where the original vision is long gone, and all that remains is a small group of individuals who basically turn it into a sewing circle. I'd hate to see that happen here.

 

[nammac]

I'm trying to understand, with my wee little brain, how those who are pro-gun and pro Second Amendment, could possibly turn a blind eye and deaf ear to all the anti-gun political rhetoric, not to mention all the closed door deals to further infringe our rights...

That's akin to saying one doesn't need to get involved in the political conversation around "common sense" gun control because they're talking about banning AR's, not my sporting clays O/U...

These subject are all intertwined and cannot be separated, not even surgically...

 

[ob1]

The stated mission/purpose of this site is:

We believe the 2nd Amendment is best defended through grass-roots organization, education, and advocacy centered around individual gun owners. It is our mission to encourage, organize, and support these efforts throughout Oregon, Washington, and Idaho.

+2 etrain16...

 

[etrain16]

Because there is a divide between legal issues and political ones. The site is intended to promote legal efforts that further the 2A cause, not to promote one party over the other.

To say they are inseparable is in my view, and in that of the site owner, a mistake.

Here are the essential ideas Joe presented at the beginning of this thread. I think it would be good to review them:

"
REITERATION OF OUR GOALS
Promote a positive image of gun owners and gun ownership.
Increase the overall number of gun owners in the Pacific Northwest.
Educate gun owners to increase knowledge and safety. Educate non-gun owners to increase knowledge and dispel common myths.
Provide resources useful to Northwest gun owners, both online and offline.
Provide a medium for members to organize pro-2A activist efforts on the grassroots level.

I'm not sure who came up with the flawed theory that gun ownership and gun politics cannot be separated - they absolutely can.

Us trying to serve as yet another 2A political organization does nothing to help our cause, it further divides our resources and organization."

Well, it appears we'll need to agree to disagree, and perhaps @Joe Link would like to weigh in as well. I've spoken directly with Joe and I know that he views politics as part of the overall plan/debate on this site - he has set up Legal and Political areas on this site for just such discussions. I also know he doesn't want it descending into 'my party is better than your party so go chew glass' types of conversations. But to say that politics can be separate from gun ownership, to me, is simply not possible.

In a perfect world, anti-gun voters and anti-gun politicians would leave our rights alone. Let's be clear - THEY are the ones that make this political, not us. I would be perfectly content to speak nothing of politics with regard to guns and just be left the hell alone to enjoy my rights. But THEY don't want that. THEY want to take our rights. And honestly, any gun owner that is apolitical or ignorant of what's going on is, in my opinion, contributing to the anti-gun attacks through apathy and inaction.

You want this to be a non-political site, then find a way to get the damn anti-gun politicians, their financial backers and their voters to dump gun control once and for all. Until then, we have a duty as gun owners to be informed, to educate and encourage others and to be active in defending our rights. If that's too sensitive an issue for some, I guess there is nothing I can do about it. But dammit, I'm an adult, I understand that not everything in my life is going to be all rosy and happy. There are bad people doing bad things to our rights and I, for one, will not be silent about it, here, or anywhere else. If that is a violation of the site policy, then I guess I'll have to go elsewhere. It is possible to have these discussions without devolving into name-calling - yes, I know some do it, and there really is no way to truly stop it. So take the bad with the good, sort out what is best and let's move on.

To me, it's almost like asking only good drivers to be on the road, and all the bad drivers need to stay home. Not possible, never going to happen. So, we keep our eyes open, we do our best to contribute as good drivers and hopefully encourage others to be good drivers too. Maybe then we'll win some folks over.

 

[Hamilton Felix]

Plato warned us that a failure to become involved in politics would result in being governed by our inferiors. That certainly proved true.

The trick is to keep presenting that positive image, while promoting the pro-2nd viewpoint. There are many strong and sometimes prickly personalities in a group like this. I ran into the same thing when running a small town volunteer fire department. The personalities that will voluntarily face a fire or step into the blood, pain and confusion of a motor vehicle accident, are not the "sheep" of society. They tend to have strongly held opinions and they are not shy. The same is true for those who have taken responsibility for their own protection, chosen to stand up for their rights, rather than be "taken care of."

In today's society, manners have largely fallen by the wayside. Too many people throw a hissy fit simply because others dare to disagree with them. We're better than that, and we must always hold to a higher standard. Every time we piss off an anti-gunner, we make a more determined enemy and lose a chance to make a convert. And if we spend our time squabbling with each other we will, in the worlds of Ben Franklin, "surely hang separately."

 

[MountainBear]

Well, despite my better judgement telling me to just stay away, I will clarify my position on this topic, as some seem to be confused why there are some of us frustrated.
2A politics on this site is fine. Has to be here. There absolutely needs to be a way to organize and for people to find out what's going on regionally and nationally. At the end of the day, some people have more time to keep up with the goings on than others. But this has to be governed by restraint. Despite what some here think, there are virulently rabid 2A supporters who don't have an (R) in their voter registration box. Some (gasp!) have a (D), others an (I), and still others, such as myself, are most closely tied to Libertarian. Those who think that people other than republicans cannot care or work towards preserving the 2A are either ignorant or lazy, and lack imagination.

There are a few issues with the political rhetoric that occurs around here. First is the above statement. There are some kids who cannot comprehend a world beyond their world view.

Second, the political discussion here cannot and does not stick to firearms related issues. That is the fault of the members for ignoring the rules and that is the fault of the moderators (either through complacency or by being overwhelmed) for not stopping it. What does Colin Kaperneck and whether or not he is right have to do with the 2A? And it infiltrates almost every section. The general discussion area is politics light. It seems there are members here who post a link to some other website and then sit back and watch the show.
The political discussion needs to not only be kept on point, but needs to be kept contained. Short of that, you are going to continue to lose valuable members. Anyone care to start the roll call of members who have left?

Look, I'm taking a break from being active here. I cannot stand the rhetoric, the hate, the divisiveness. Probably until after November at least (when the sky has stopped falling). In that time, it is my sincere hope that this site goes back to being a place for people to come together and talk about guns. Where the politics gets reigned in and kept where it belongs.
I will likely still lurk, I will likely still say hello on occasion. That decision won't bother most of you.

But some of the instigators on the site, some of those claiming that it's their way or the highway, some of those claiming that we can't possibly be for guns if we're not Republicans or Trump supporters would do well to ask themselves if they think we can win this fight being this divided.

Good day, God bless!

 

[etrain16]

This response is not aimed at anyone in particular, it is simply my thoughts surrounding this particular topic.

I get that some people don't enjoy political conversation, some only like the political conversation that favors their opinion. If I come across a discussion, or a thread, that involves something I don't want to see or hear, I move on. I don't get why folks want to squash certain discussions because they're not personally comfortable with them. Most political content here is confined to either the legal and political area or to the t a v e r n, where only those who meet the requirements and specifically request access, can get in.

So why so much worry? This site will continue to function. New members will continue to come, some will stay, some won't. Some other members who have been around for a while will stay, some will go. Such is the life of any forum. Heck, if bad attitudes, nasty political talk, profanity and generally nasty behavior would kill a site, then the AKFiles.com wouldn't be the huge forum it is - it makes NWFA look tiny when you look at the numbers - and I can tell you from my limited time there, it's no holds barred. You have to be really nasty to get kicked off that site. But I wonder, does anyone claim AKFiles is hurting gun owners and the 2nd amendment? I've never heard anyone mention it. So are a few off hand political comments on this site really going to kill things for gun owners? Especially when those comments may be limited to the restricted/limited access sections?

If someone has a problem with a particular member, do what @Joe Link said, and report them or their post(s) to the moderators and let them deal with it. We had a new member recently that showed up and started a bunch of crap - the members kind of corralled the guy until the mods could read the reports - they deleted his posts and banned him from the site. I think it's unfair to say that the mods/Joe aren't doing anything about certain political commentary. If they're not, either it's not being reported, or it doesn't overtly violate the rules of the site.

On the flip side, it seems when the mods or Joe do jump on certain things, people get upset with them for squashing free speech and expression. Seems they can't win no matter what they do

I'd also like to know, for those that think we should only discuss strictly firearms content here, should the site likewise get rid of the 'off topic' section? Should we stop talking about humor, or cars or favorite foods or prepping or recipes? Seems like the folks here like to talk about a lot more than just guns, it shouldn't be surprising that politics mixes in there too. After all, we're all affected by political activities.

But I'll say it again - if certain topics don't interest you or bother you, then why not just ignore those threads and move on to what does interest you?

 

[Diamondback]

I'd just like to toss one little thought out to leave hanging here for thinking-on...

"Rule #12: The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative."
--Saul Alinsky

 

[Pandaz3]

"Us trying to serve as yet another 2A political organization does nothing to help our cause, it further divides our resources and organization"
I am a lifetime member of the NRA, a regular member of GOA, NAGR, USCCA and OFF, along with occasional support for the 2A organizations I vote regularly and I pay attention as to who I am voting for....that's enough for me.

 

[Mark Torrence]

YES, SILENCE POLITICS in the discussion . . . Just give it up . . . Act like everything is fine . . . Ignore the liberal anti-2nd amendment bottom feeders . . . AND WHILE YOU'RE AT IT get your firearms packed so that the governorette's minions can easily transport them to the crusher!

Sheldon

So I like to shoot. I like to shoot the very best I am able. I like to discuss trajectory, guns, ballistic coefficients and making myself and my stuff better. I like to discuss what I carry and why it works or not. I am NOT into "making and argument". Frankly I don't think that in any way attracts or convinces anyone to come over to our side. ALL it seems to do is cause discord as is evidenced by this very discussion. It started out with Joe giving some thoughts and guidance on where this site is, where it's going and why. The conversation/argument then went on and morphed from some idiot making a statement to the first amendment and then to ignoring the current 2A challenges and is now focused on what we are doing here. Round and round we go. I am NOT ignoring the problem. I understand and am doing all I can to help stop it. That said I also understand that we can have a discussion about firearms and shooting without involving politics.
I understand the "tight rope" Joe is walking I just don't think he needs to do it. Keep up the good work Joe. Sorry man but I am glad it's you and not me.

 

[klmspider]

Most of you have seen and read The Atmosphere of Northwest Firearms. My inbox currently holds 376 conversations pertaining to this; an incredible amount of feedback. I've read all of them, and starting today I'm going to do my best to reply to each of them. I appreciate all of you who took the time to write. While reading these conversations over the past few days I've been compiling my thoughts for the purpose of posting them here for public commentary. There has been no 'behind the scenes' discussion among the staff. Though I will be making the final decisions, this involves everyone. Hopefully we can come up with solutions to our issues together.

One of our biggest challenges is making people understand that unlike most internet forums, our goals (which I mention below) are much more important to us than traffic numbers, advertising, etc. Regardless of money I couldn't live with myself if I were running a community that I knew hurt our cause, and right now I believe that's exactly what I'm doing. Getting people to understand that this is a single issue community built for all current and potential gun owners regardless of political party is something I must do. Fact is there are pro-gun Democrats such as Sen. Betsy Johnson (D-OR) and anti-gun Republicans such as Michael Bloomberg (who has been more effective than anyone when it comes to infringing on the 2A). No question, the simplified generalizations so pervasive here and everywhere else are short-sighted, foolish, and irresponsible, doing great damage to our cause in the solidly blue Pacific Northwest.

Our previous attempts at trying to please everyone has resulted in failure (big surprise), so the new plan is to focus on catering to those who share our goals. I would rather have a smaller group working toward these goals than a larger group whose actions reflect that they don't particularly care. I fully expect to lose some people with the changes we're going to make. I fully expect people to whine about heavy handed moderation, though they violated clearly-written rules with which they didn't agree. I fully expect people to complain about NWFA infringing on their 1st amendment right, and I suggest they re-read the constitution. I fully expect people to complain about moderators unfairly targeting conservatives, though they cannot see who was warned or banned and why. I'm fully aware that, for better or worse, I'll have to live with the results of the decisions we make in the coming week. I'm perfectly fine with that, now more than ever.

REITERATION OF OUR GOALS

1. Promote a positive image of gun owners and gun ownership.
   
2. Increase the overall number of gun owners in the Pacific Northwest.
   
3. Educate gun owners to increase knowledge and safety. Educate non-gun owners to increase knowledge and dispel common myths.
4. Provide resources useful to Northwest gun owners, both online and offline.
5. Provide a medium for members to organize pro-2A activist efforts on the grassroots level.

While we do work with 2A political organizations on occasion, our purpose has never included direct political involvement ourselves. Two reasons for this:

1. There are numerous organizations one can join and work within which are focused solely on the political side of the 2A. The line between activism and politics is very thin, with the difference being that activism represents action.
   
2. No way around it, the practice of politics breeds division. Go read the latest email from any of our 2A organizations and see for yourself. I'm not saying it's right or it's wrong. However, considering our aim of bringing people together and growing our numbers, these are mutually exclusive.

Us trying to serve as yet another 2A political organization does nothing to help our cause, it further divides our resources and organization. Everyone trying to do everything is extremely inefficient and counterproductive. Our strategy, a better strategy, is to focus on specialized goals. One of (if not the) the most important is working to attract new gun owners. Once they've overcome the initial, inherent intimidation of gun ownership and hooked on shooting then they can decide whether they want to get politically involved. Our choice to focus on one aspect, the very first steps in gun ownership, absolutely requires that we maintain a solid, positive image and a welcoming, friendly environment.

I'm not sure who came up with the flawed theory that gun ownership and gun politics cannot be separated - they absolutely can. The use and enjoyment of a right does not automatically involve one in the political fight to protect that right. Right or wrong, participation in that fight is an individual choice. When a group of people all fighting for the same cause attempt to identify which of them are 'more' for their cause it is known as eating their own (#3 below). Unfortunately human nature guarantees that this entirely voluntary habit remains prevalent across the the entire political spectrum.

ISSUES WE NEED TO ADDRESS

1. COMMUNITY TONE/FEEL/FIRST IMPRESSION - I'll go back to the analogy I used in the other thread. If military recruitment began with a war zone tour, how many people would join? How many people aren't joining NWFA in the first place because of what they see? One of the reasons this site has been very successful in the past is due to us being local and welcoming to new people, and us doing our best to provide a helpful, unbiased firearm community. Many have made what will likely be lifelong friends here, despite eventually finding out they had political differences. If those differences were highlighted rather than their shared interest in guns, those friendships likely wouldn't exist. We need to make every effort to focus on the one topic that unites all of us: firearms.
   
   
2. OUR IMAGE - Gun forums in general are a great argument against gun owners and the 2A. Empirical data shows that gun owners are generally law abiding, responsible, quality people. Unfortunately those positive character traits seem to disappear for many once they're in front of a screen. Others are simply so far out of touch that their constant preaching makes us all look like Jerry Fletcher. Even with irrefutable evidence, nobody would believe them because of their reputation. Image is every bit as important as the message one is trying to convey.
   
   
3. CANNIBALISTIC BEHAVIOR - Snubbing and ostracizing others because they're not 'pro-gun enough' is a great way to kill our cause. It's so effective that opposition groups actually use it against us, and we fall for it every time. Who wants to keep company with people who behave like that? In the same way you have to crawl before you can run, it is extremely unlikely for someone to become 100% as-it-was-written pro-gun without being educated in a positive, respectful manner in a non-hostile environment. You will never convince anyone by talking down to them or telling them they're wrong.

CHANGES BEING MADE

1. Rule Updates - Particularly #1
2. Disabled Deleted Post/Thread Placeholder - These serve no good purpose other than to anger people knowing that something was removed. A failed experiment, this is why most other forums don't have them enabled. We will be looking into how we can update our warning system to send a copy of content for which a user was warned.
3. The report button will be moved out of the post control menu to a more convenient location (to be determined).
4. Enforcement of non-2A/RKBA content rule in the Preparedness & Survival section.

POSSIBLE/LIKELY CHANGES

1. Crowd Moderation - We're currently testing a system which will automatically hide a post once it has been reported by members a set number of times. The existing system will still function as normal so moderators can review reports and take further action (or restore the post). The goal with this is to get members more involved in the policing of the site.
2. Legal & Political will be split into two new categories; Laws & Legal for the discussion of current laws and legal issues and Legislation & Activism for the discussion of 2A legislation and activism efforts.
3. Non-firearm political content will be changed to non-2A/RKBA content.
4. Prohibition of news links and chain emails. These carry with them inherent bias and emotion, causing the same in most discussions that takes place.
5. Renaming warnings to reminders. We shouldn't be considering this as we're all adults here, but people act like they're being penalized when they receive a warning. A warning is simply a reminder. The penalty for too many warnings is a vacation, which is actually very rare.

QUESTIONS TO CONSIDER

• How do we create a positive, welcoming environment here?
  
• What do we want peoples' initial impressions of our community to be?
  
• What words do we want people to use to describe our community?
• What words do we not want people to use to describe our community?

BEFORE REPLYING HERE

This thread is for feedback on the possible changes or questions. We are not looking for arguments, opinion, or discussion regarding our strategy. Though these are technically opinions, Northwest Firearms will be operating as though they are facts. You don't have to leave if you don't agree, but you do have to respect our rules.

What we are looking for is ideas on how we can solve these issues as a community. Please take the above into consideration. Thank you for your time.

Joe Link
Northwest Firearms

The clarity of your intent couldn't be better stated, or more appreciated. Yeah, I feel it. Politically, I'm quite liberal, which sounds so arbitary! I 'my an RN, whose taken care of plenty of GSW's, I taught Elementary School earlier (retired)..... I'm also a Navy veteran, LIFE NRA for 40+yrs(and instructor) also hunt, shoot, and reload. Teach & practice concealed carry. My political party has it all wrong on guns, but not much else. I will NEVER point a gun at someone, intimidate or hurt someone, unless I'd otherwise be killed (or a loved one). I could never live with that. But, guns have always fascinated me and brought so much fun, good times, and friends.
I welcome experiencing I want your direction to succeed.
Will with hold comment on the beta version, for now. Plucking out letters on this 7" tablet is tedious enough. Looks fine, so far!

 

[bsa1917hunter]

This response is not aimed at anyone in particular, it is simply my thoughts surrounding this particular topic.

I get that some people don't enjoy political conversation, some only like the political conversation that favors their opinion. If I come across a discussion, or a thread, that involves something I don't want to see or hear, I move on. I don't get why folks want to squash certain discussions because they're not personally comfortable with them. Most political content here is confined to either the legal and political area or to the t a v e r n, where only those who meet the requirements and specifically request access, can get in.

So why so much worry? This site will continue to function. New members will continue to come, some will stay, some won't. Some other members who have been around for a while will stay, some will go. Such is the life of any forum. Heck, if bad attitudes, nasty political talk, profanity and generally nasty behavior would kill a site, then the AKFiles.com wouldn't be the huge forum it is - it makes NWFA look tiny when you look at the numbers - and I can tell you from my limited time there, it's no holds barred. You have to be really nasty to get kicked off that site. But I wonder, does anyone claim AKFiles is hurting gun owners and the 2nd amendment? I've never heard anyone mention it. So are a few off hand political comments on this site really going to kill things for gun owners? Especially when those comments may be limited to the restricted/limited access sections?

If someone has a problem with a particular member, do what @Joe Link said, and report them or their post(s) to the moderators and let them deal with it. We had a new member recently that showed up and started a bunch of crap - the members kind of corralled the guy until the mods could read the reports - they deleted his posts and banned him from the site. I think it's unfair to say that the mods/Joe aren't doing anything about certain political commentary. If they're not, either it's not being reported, or it doesn't overtly violate the rules of the site.

On the flip side, it seems when the mods or Joe do jump on certain things, people get upset with them for squashing free speech and expression. Seems they can't win no matter what they do

I'd also like to know, for those that think we should only discuss strictly firearms content here, should the site likewise get rid of the 'off topic' section? Should we stop talking about humor, or cars or favorite foods or prepping or recipes? Seems like the folks here like to talk about a lot more than just guns, it shouldn't be surprising that politics mixes in there too. After all, we're all affected by political activities.

But I'll say it again - if certain topics don't interest you or bother you, then why not just ignore those threads and move on to what does interest you?

It's guys like you that make this a great place. I enjoy reading your posts and also commend Joe Link for all the work he does here. There's a great bunch of guys here that keep it pretty civil compared to some other sites I frequent.

 

[etrain16]

It's guys like you that make this a great place. I enjoy reading your posts and also commend Joe Link for all the work he does here. There's a great bunch of guys here that keep it pretty civil compared to some other sites I frequent.

I appreciate that kind comment There are lots of good folks on this board. I've learned more here about guns than just about anywhere else, also met some really great people in the process. It's good to see newer folks coming on board too - these sites have some natural attrition, so we need to keep the good hopper full. I've caught some of your posts too, looks like you've been off to a good start since you joined.

 

[bsa1917hunter]

Thanks, this is a great place with a lot of like minded individuals. The nice thing about it is I know a few guys that post here regularly. Nice to have a PNW site like this where you can chat with your buddies....

 

[Andy54Hawken]

I've not yet met anyone from here in person.
But it is nice to have a regional / local place to hang out and talk guns.
There a a few regulars here that I always look forward to seeing their posts.
Andy

 

[etrain16]

I've not yet met anyone from here in person.
But it is nice to have a regional / local place to hang out and talk guns.
There a a few regulars here that I always look forward to seeing their posts.
Andy

You ever get down PDX/Vancouver way, I suspect we could gather up a nice group of folks that would love to meet you in person Andy

 

[Joe13]

You ever get down PDX way, I suspect we could gather up a nice group of folks that would love to meet you in person Andy

Heck yea! Hold down a quarter of a sports bar or the like for a few hours

 

[11Charlie]

Road Trip!!!!

 

[nammac]

I'm in, beers and appetizers..... Yum....

 

[Larrytpdx]

Count me in too!