Tea Party organizers say "No guns!"

[zeezee]

These are good quotes, but I fail to see how they say treasonous talk is
acceptable when the Republic is still functioning.

"treasonous talk"? Did you not read what PP wrote, did you not read what the founding fathers wrote and he quoted? So lets start over.

"It is the first responsibility of every citizen to Question Authority." - Benjamin Franklin

Then how about this quote: The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson

48% of the American population pay no income tax.

Lastly a quote for all you liberal socialist followers:

Norman Thomas said this in a 1944 speech:
"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." He went on to say: "I no longer need to run as a Presidential Candidate for the Socialist Party. The Democratic Party has adopted our platform."

If you call yourself a democrat, you are essentially calling yourself a socialist/marxist/communist.

Or look at this link, the 10 planks of the communist manifesto; http://www.libertyzone.com/Communist-Manifesto-Planks.html

The United States of America a Republic? In name only..

 

[Partsproduction]

The problem we are seeing here is that some of us were reared on the founding fathers wisdom, and taught to hold their ideals in awe, and some were not. That's it in a nutshell.

If one reads the ideas we have presented that show clearly how Americans must defend freedom to the death to remain patriots, and find those ideas "treasonous", that proves that the ideology of those readers is tainted (At the very least) with anti American ideology.

The reason that is true is because this country was founded, from the beginning, with those ideas! If you don't like the ideas it is you who needs to change, or, if you choose, move to Cuba or some other place where personal freedom is not regarded as valuable. You say you were born here? Good, then act like those who were blessed with God's gift of freedom from birth.

It's really that simple.

 

[zeezee]

The problem we are seeing here is that some of us were reared on the founding fathers wisdom, and taught to hold their ideals in awe, and some were not. That's it in a nutshell.

If one reads the ideas we have presented that show clearly how Americans must defend freedom to the death to remain patriots, and find those ideas "treasonous", that proves that the ideology of those readers is tainted (At the very least) with anti American ideology.

The reason that is true is because this country was founded, from the beginning, with those ideas! If you don't like the ideas it is you who needs to change, or, if you choose, move to Cuba or some other place where personal freedom is not regarded as valuable. You say you were born here? Good, then act like those who were blessed with God's gift of freedom from birth.

It's really that simple.

I'll raise a glass to that.

 

[Stomper]

IMO, we have a terrific system of government, its the shifty schlubs within it working EVERYTHING to their own advantage, and raiding the treasury that are the problem.... therein lies the TREASON thou speakest of!!

 

[watcher]

Partsproduction

Let's do some clarification.

First, I have never argued about the validity of the Second Amendment and I have the guns to prove it. So leave the spurious comments out of your posts, they just waste space.

Second. I will not be a slave, this also includes not being dictated to by a bunch of half-baked pseudo-revolutionaries who think their petty grievances should be forced onto the voting majority of the population. The power (as you like to state) is with the people, the majority of the people. The people elect representatives to make laws. If the Supreme Court rejects a proposed law as unconstitutional then the people have the power to amend the Constitution so that the law does becomes constitutional. That is the way the Constitution is designed. The Constitution is not like the Ten Commandments, engraved in stone, it was designed from the beginning to be a living document. The writers made it difficult to change the Constitution, which was very wise, but they expressly made change possible because they saw, unlike the TParty, that a growing nation would require the legal flexibility to expand.

Third. Article One, Section One (pretty significant location , No?) of the Constitution states;

"All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives."

If Congress and the Senate pass a law, and it can withstand a Supreme Court challenge, it is the law of the land. If the law is challenged in the Supreme Court (or actually any other Court) it is either struck down or upheld and it becomes law or it does not. The Court may decide to provide a supporting opinion to their ruling. This is known as "dicta" and IT IS NOT LAW, it is merely an expansion of the Courts opinion. What YOU are referring to are the PERSONAL STATEMENTS of various people. In legal terms they mean ABSOLUTELY ZERO, they are not law they are merely comments, they are worth less than dicta. Now, these comments may be used by the Court to try to clarify the intent behind an actual law but I repeat THEY ARE NOT THE LAW OF THE LAND so, while they are popular with your group, you might as well forget them as a means of justifying your opinions.

Fourth. There are ways of proceeding if you believe that your rights are being infringed. They are Impeachment and Appeal to the Supreme Court. Of course, you need FACTS to follow these routes, and since FACTs seem to be in short supply in your arguments, you may not get very far. Quoting the opinions of long dead white guys does not constitute a legal argument.

 

[watcher]

The problem we are seeing here is that some of us were reared on the founding fathers wisdom, and taught to hold their ideals in awe, and some were not. That's it in a nutshell.

The founding fathers were wise but not psychically far-sighted. Some of the regulations they made for the growth of the nation are still valid but, for the nation to survive, others must be properly amended. The founding fathers were wise but;
1. Could they foresee the growth of the nation to 300 million people?
2. Could they foresee the vastly complicated World that America would exist in in 2010?
3. Could they foresee America's role in that World?
4. Could they foresee the enormous size and complexity of the nation's financial system?
5. Could they foresee the enormous size and complexity of international trade?
6. Could they have foreseen how dependent the nation would be on imported fuel?
7. Could they foresee the introduction of the automobile and aircraft and the vast national networks needed for their operation?
edited to add
8. Could they foresee the vast cost and complexity of our health care system?

These are just a few of the 21st century areas where our legal and financial systems have to grow to meet the nation's needs and ensure its survival. The idea that we can somehow successfully return to a 1910 economy, a time when we had not even fought two World Wars not to mention a slew of smaller ones, is a pea-brained fantasy that can only be held by people with a very restricted intellectual ability. The country cannot expand without increased federal control. Sorry, but our national survival depends on expanding our definition of what is "constitutional", not improperly beyond the Constitution itself, but certainly beyond the narrow path visible to the founding fathers who were restricted by their inability to see into the future. Why do we not give the founding fathers the praise that they richly deserve and thank them for the solid ground they gave us as we move into a future they could not foresee and hence could not properly legislate?

ZeeZee,
I am still waiting for a factual verification of the "48% non-taxpayers" you keep mentioning. Either provide FACTS or drop the argument. Using quotes without references puts you in the same group as Rush - we wouldn't want that would we?
By the way, you suggested I was a junkie in a previous post, I am not, but what do you think about Rush being a junkie, is it OK to be a right wing junkie but bad to be a left wing junkie?
And we won't even mention right wing draft dodgers.

 

[Stomper]

So what you're suggesting is that we just should surrender our rights in the name of "progress"... no thanks. Without "imposing religion", GOD could (and did) forsee all the things mankind would develop within his own schemes, and the levels of abject evil he would sink down into, and he saw fit to give us TEN simple commandments for the ages. I bet you think the 10 commandments are "outdated" too...

 

[watcher]

Actually Stomper, I have not yet decided how I think about God or religion in general. I know that I think that all established Christian religions are basically corruptions that are designed to make slaves of men, I have not had time to decide about the rest of the World religions yet.

I view ultra religious Christians as SLAVES of the false churches they follow, not slaves of the God they worship. Should I bow down before a Bishop because he is 57th in line for the interpretation of the true word of God, should I tithe to a blow-waved TV evangelist so that he can buy another private jet - give me a break.

One thing I believe is that if God exists he gave us free will. He did not say that we should grovel at the feet of men no better than us (and as recent events show, a lot worse). If when all ends I stand before God I will admit I made a mistake. He will do with me as he wishes. If I have led a life that is no worse than it has been so far and this God decides I should go to **** than to **** with him. If I go to **** under those terms I know that there I will meet a lot of men like me that I have worked with, endured with, and admired. That will be better than spending eternity with a lot of subservient, brown-nosed, boot-lickers.

And don't give me the Ten Commandments you hypocrite. The one thing I remember Jesus saying is love your fellow men and perform charity. He did not say that you should only give to the people you choose, he said your fellow men. What do we get from our Oh so religious right wing? Don't tax me, it isn't fair that I should pay for anyone elses welfare.

Religious hypocrites make my guts crawl.

 

[zeezee]

The founding fathers were wise but not psychically far-sighted. Some of the regulations they made for the growth of the nation are still valid but, for the nation to survive, others must be properly amended. The founding fathers were wise but;
1. Could they foresee the growth of the nation to 300 million people?
2. Could they foresee the vastly complicated World that America would exist in in 2010?
3. Could they foresee America's role in that World?
4. Could they foresee the enormous size and complexity of the nation's financial system?
5. Could they foresee the enormous size and complexity of international trade?
6. Could they have foreseen how dependent the nation would be on imported fuel?
7. Could they foresee the introduction of the automobile and aircraft and the vast national networks needed for their operation?
edited to add
8. Could they foresee the vast cost and complexity of our health care system?

These are just a few of the 21st century areas where our legal and financial systems have to grow to meet the nation's needs and ensure its survival. The idea that we can somehow successfully return to a 1910 economy, a time when we had not even fought two World Wars not to mention a slew of smaller ones, is a pea-brained fantasy that can only be held by people with a very restricted intellectual ability. The country cannot expand without increased federal control. Sorry, but our national survival depends on expanding our definition of what is "constitutional", not improperly beyond the Constitution itself, but certainly beyond the narrow path visible to the founding fathers who were restricted by their inability to see into the future. Why do we not give the founding fathers the praise that they richly deserve and thank them for the solid ground they gave us as we move into a future they could not foresee and hence could not properly legislate?

ZeeZee,
I am still waiting for a factual verification of the "48% non-taxpayers" you keep mentioning. Either provide FACTS or drop the argument. Using quotes without references puts you in the same group as Rush - we wouldn't want that would we?
By the way, you suggested I was a junkie in a previous post, I am not, but what do you think about Rush being a junkie, is it OK to be a right wing junkie but bad to be a left wing junkie?
And we won't even mention right wing draft dodgers.

Here watcher, you could have looked this up yourself but being the liberal socialist you are . . http://www.lvrj.com/blogs/sherm/Almost_half_American_households_pay_no_income_tax_.html

Just type into the little search engine what you want to find today and as if by magic it appears.

 

[zeezee]

4. Could they foresee the enormous size and complexity of the nation's financial system?

Yes, they could and they did.

6. Could they have foreseen how dependent the nation would be on imported fuel?

Heck watcher any half witted idiot knows we have more oil under us and off shore than all of the middle east. Do your home work before making such asinine claims. And why are we so dependent on foreign oil? Because the libtards won't let us drill for the f'n oil!

I'm done arguing with you, last post have a good life fool.

 

[Stomper]

Watcher, I share your view on "religion" as well... selling skin, selling god, the numbers are the same on the credit card... but the failings of religion aren't God's fault.

FYI-
Jesus ALSO said if a man (or woman) is not willing to work, he (she) shouldn't eat, and that the poor and hungry we'll ALWAYS have with us... but the almighty wiser than God, "progressive" is gonna eliminate poverty... with just a little more money than yesterday.... yeah, right. I have SIX children to feed, cloth and provide for... I shouldn't have to have almost HALF of my income CONFISCATED... and I'm NOT living "high on the hog", I can tell you that... and nobody here has EVER said we shouldn't have to pay ANY tax... the government keeps increasing it's spending at INSANE rates and squandering our money on INSANE things. Its NOT unreasonable to demand an accounting of how and why our money is spent the way it is. I'm not for leaving people laying in the ditch to die by any means, but the way our government is going about it is not good stewardship of OUR money.

 

[Partsproduction]

I know that I think that all established Christian religions are basically corruptions that are designed to make slaves of men,

It all makes sense now, taken as I think you meant it that means you don't accept the bible as God's word. The way you state it reveals a lot.

There are actually many religions based on corruption of the bible, but there is only one Christian faith, and there never were more than one.
I submit that the America conceived and executed by the founding fathers, whose words you put no stock in evidently, can not work in a purely secular society. Slavery is probably as good as anything for that society.

You are welcome to your opinions.

 

[watcher]

Thank you ZeeZee. I will read the review carefully and examine its accuracy. .

The claim that the framers of the Constitution could have predicted the size of the US economy 230 years in the future I think we can reject out of hand as ludicrous.

You again fail to comprehend. I did not ask whether the framers could predict whether there would be oil in the ground in 2010 (since, obviously, the use of oil for fuel as we understand it was unknown). I asked whether the framers could "foresee how dependent the nation would be on imported fuel?". Please read the statement before responding - it will save a lot of time. Ooops! sorry. I see you will not be responding again.

Stomper,

Its NOT unreasonable to demand an accounting of how and why our money is spent the way it is.

Now, that statement I agree with completely. This is the area of taxes that makes me furious (I do not enjoy taxes any more than you do). I am willing to pay taxes but I darned well want to be sure that the money I am paying is being used wisely. I am not naive enough to think that there will never be fraud in the end use of my taxes but I do expect reasonable safeguards against this and I do not expect the government to aid the fraud by permitting earmarks, corporate sweetheart deals and the excessive use of incentives to government contractors etc.

I do not think we should provide welfare to those who choose not to work. I do not think we should provide payments to the dumbaZZs who got into the housing market over their head through buying a status symbol they could not afford. I do ask you to consider however that there are many people who are in a bad way through no fault of their own. On a humanistic level these people deserve some help to recover their lives. You can't really blame people for getting fired or becoming ill and, before you say it, not everyone is lucky enough to be able to plan for such events.

 

[watcher]

Partsproduction
My relationship with God is far more confused and complicated than you can ever imagine.

I know my wife is going to Heaven since she is a person who improves the World with her presence.
I know my three dogs are in, or will be going to, Doggy Heaven since all they know is loyalty and love.

If there is a Heaven (you see I am confused already) my greatest reason for going there would be to join with these four.

Once I prayed all night to a God I was not sure existed to save a person from illness who I am willing to admit deserved to be in this World far more than me. Against all odds the person recovered.

Yet I remain agnostic. For a start the Christian Church stands in my way on the path to religion. The pomp sickens me. The hypocrisy of some Christians sickens me. The words of the Bible I distrust since it has been far too greatly influenced by the interpretation of self-serving men. The degrading contest between the various creeds sickens me. There may be only one Christian religion but there are many creeds, all claiming to be the only way to God.

All I am left with is the belief that if I do unto others as I would want them to do to me things will work out OK in the end. I may meet God, I may meet "A" God in a form we cannot even conceive of or I may find that the whole plot of our life and death is weirder than we could ever imagine.

I can take comfort in this "Death will be life's next great adventure so go to it looking forward".

 

[Partsproduction]

My relationship with God is far more confused and complicated than you can ever imagine.

Probably so, well, as far as it goes.

 

[watcher]

ZeeZee,
A quick look at several sites shows that the claim that "48% (+/-) of Americans pay no federal income tax" is correct.
Most of these people do pay other forms of taxes.

A group classified as "low-income elderly" seem to be the largest group of non-taxpayers since they actually earn very little taxable income - seems obvious. They also pay relatively little in other forms of taxes although property taxes hit this group heavily because they often own their own home that has risen steeply in assessed value over the years and many of them live on a fixed income.

Another group manages to avoid federal income tax by taking advantage of a wide range of tax deductions, these are middle-income people. These people are likely to be payers of other types of taxes. They pay no federal income taxes because they take advantage of legal deductions, not because they cheat on their tax returns.

So far I cannot find a percentage break down of the group sizes.

 

[pdxjohann]

Dang, makes me want to staple tea bags to my hat. And, carry photos of my president faked out with devils horns while I bob signs with "fascist" and "socialist" in the same sentence. ...... yeah I read a book.

 

[2506]

ZeeZee,
A quick look at several sites shows that the claim that "48% (+/-) of Americans pay no federal income tax" is correct.
Most of these people do pay other forms of taxes.

A group classified as "low-income elderly" seem to be the largest group of non-taxpayers since they actually earn very little taxable income - seems obvious. They also pay relatively little in other forms of taxes although property taxes hit this group heavily because they often own their own home that has risen steeply in assessed value over the years and many of them live on a fixed income.

Another group manages to avoid federal income tax by taking advantage of a wide range of tax deductions, these are middle-income people. These people are likely to be payers of other types of taxes. They pay no federal income taxes because they take advantage of legal deductions, not because they cheat on their tax returns.

So far I cannot find a percentage break down of the group sizes.

Wow...thread drift. I would aver that I fall into the latter group. I like to think I'm middle-income and I got a sizeable refund this year, mostly due to my use of legal deductions: owning a home, having dependents, paying for daycare, sales tax deduction, et al.

 

[watcher]

Not really thread drift 2506.

I challenged ZeeZee to provide facts about his non-paying of "income tax" claim (this is a popular complaint of the TParty). This he did and I supplied the background information that shows his claim to be correct. The claim is correct but the reason is not "tax dodging" as some TParty members would imply. It is mainly because the non-tax payers are a large number of older people living on very low fixed incomes and so they do not reach the threshold of income to pay federal income tax.

ZeeZee was not too happy about having to find a reference to support his claim. I would like to gently remind him that if someone makes a certain claim it is that person's responsibility to prove it with a reference - it is not the readers job to verify facts on his behalf.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

The problem we are seeing here is that some of us were reared on the founding fathers wisdom, and taught to hold their ideals in awe, and some were not. That's it in a nutshell.

If one reads the ideas we have presented that show clearly how Americans must defend freedom to the death to remain patriots, and find those ideas "treasonous", that proves that the ideology of those readers is tainted (At the very least) with anti American ideology.

The reason that is true is because this country was founded, from the beginning, with those ideas! If you don't like the ideas it is you who needs to change, or, if you choose, move to Cuba or some other place where personal freedom is not regarded as valuable. You say you were born here? Good, then act like those who were blessed with God's gift of freedom from birth.

It's really that simple.

Exactly.. I will fight to the death against enemies foreign and domestic to restore the liberties we have lost, and protect the few now remaining.. and I will sleep very well having made that decision

As far as religion I will just say that organized religion is a sham.. but that there is a God who made us and He has a plan for us if we only dare to ask Him to reveal it to us. What we do then with the truth determines our eternal destiny