Poll: Talk me out of an AR Pistol...

[wired]

I'm not going to jump on the short barrel is less accurate bandwagon. The bullet comes out slower to be sure . I can't get over 2500 FPS with my 10.5 running 62 grain Nosslers and 2400 running the 69's. If theres a better powder for short barrels than 4198 I'm certainly not aware of it. Doesnt cost any more to reload than anything else. Speed is not accuracy though. The bullet stabilizes just fine out of a 10.5" 1:7 barrel though and I can handily pick up under 1 inch groups at 100 yards. With a marginally good scope (not a red dot with little or no magnification) if you do your part you can shoot every bit as good as a long barrel just not as long of a range. I keep a 4-12X scope on mine and it shoots every bit as good as I can shoot.

FWIW the ATF never reversed its position on the SIG brace. The ATF said it could be used as designed if that design actually meant it was an arm brace . It never said it could be shouldered. That would be a buttstock. Their "clarification" letter was to force home the fact that the sig brace was not a buttstock and to use it as such would be to using it as an SBR which of course makes total sense legally. I like SIG products and I appreciate what they are trying to do by thumbing their corporate noses at the ATF but that thing was never really designed to be an arm brace. Its just a means of skirting the law.

 

[oli700]

Shorter barrels are more accurate all else being equal. Heating and barrel harmonics don't affect shorter barrels as much ......velocity and stability are what suffer with a short barrel .....but I believe shorter barrels are harder to be accurate with.

 

[shibbershabber]

How does all of this info measure up when applied to an AK pistol firing a 7.62x39?

 

[wired]

How does all of this info measure up when applied to an AK pistol firing a 7.62x39?

Its an AK. You pull the trigger. It goes bang every time. The bullets go somewhere. Sometimes you really can't be sure where they go but it goes bang every time.

All the same rules apply to an AK as to an AR-15.

 

[oli700]

"Weapon" is a different category altogether with no barrel length restrictions.

Thanks for the reply...I ran off and put my Troy stubble on my 27 oal ......as I am driving it around in the garage it occurred to me,.......being not a pistol, no more conceal carry under the CHL with the FG.....

 

[wired]

If you are conceal carrying a 25 inch AR-15 I dont know what to say. Have fun with that. Just because its technically legal to do something doesn't mean its the best idea to actually do it. Hey, I'm not one to throw stones so do whatever floats your boat.

I suppose you can configure it differently for each day of the week. Its not like a machine gun where once its a machine gun its always a machine gun. Put on the forward grip one day with the flash hider, maybe the next day walk around Portland or Seattle with your megapistol shoved in your pants. "Is that an AR-15 in your pants or are you happy to see me?". Fashion statement sort of thing.

 

[oli700]

Well not so much on my body in the traditional since , that would be lame lol

 

[Flopsweat]

If you are conceal carrying a 25 inch AR-15 I dont know what to say. Have fun with that. Just because its technically legal to do something doesn't mean its the best idea to actually do it. Hey, I'm not one to throw stones so do whatever floats your boat.

I suppose you can configure it differently for each day of the week. Its not like a machine gun where once its a machine gun its always a machine gun. Put on the forward grip one day with the flash hider, maybe the next day walk around Portland or Seattle with your megapistol shoved in your pants. "Is that an AR-15 in your pants or are you happy to see me?". Fashion statement sort of thing.

The point in Washington is that you don't have to unload it when you throw it in your trunk. I don't know anyone who walks around with a concealed AR or AK pistol.

 

[Flopsweat]

Heres another option...

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/21...mil-spec-diameter-ar-15-lr-308-aluminum-matte

"The Midwest Industries Pistol Buffer Tube is a great option when building an AR Pistol. This Pistol Buffer Tube features a shoulder for the SB15 Arm Brace to rest against in order to increase the length of pull and it uses a standard end plate and castle nut which provides several rear sling mounting options.
The Midwest Industries Pistol Buffer Tube is long enough that the rear of the tube sits flush with the rear of the Sig Sauer SB15. This completely fills the void at the rear of the SB15 to provide more rigidity and it is long enough to bring an AR pistol with a 10.5" barrel to 26" overall length so you can install a vertical grip."

About fifty cents worth of paracord wrapped tightly around the receiver extension has held my brace out at a comfortable length for bracing my wrist for probably a year now and many range trips. Just sayin'.

 

[wired]

About fifty cents worth of paracord wrapped tightly around the receiver extension has held my brace out at a comfortable length for bracing my wrist for probably a year now and many range trips. Just sayin'.

Just saying that if you want to make sure you are over 26" of metal so you can put a forward pistol grip on without making it a AOW that is the part you want to use. Not that its probably needed but some people like the piece of mind.

 

[Flopsweat]

Just saying that if you want to make sure you are over 26" of metal so you can put a forward pistol grip on without making it a AOW that is the part you want to use. Not that its probably needed but some people like the piece of mind.

And you make a good point. If you want a metal solution that's a pretty good one. No worries.

 

[wired]

The point in Washington is that you don't have to unload it when you throw it in your trunk. I don't know anyone who walks around with a concealed AR or AK pistol.

So drive around with it in your trunk or under the seat and when you get to where you shoot at throw the forward pistol grip on in 4 seconds. No laws getting broken. Everyone goes home at the end of the day.

 

[Flopsweat]

So drive around with it in your trunk or under the seat and when you get to where you shoot at throw the forward pistol grip on in 4 seconds. No laws getting broken. Everyone goes home at the end of the day.

It's all good. My point was that people are not concealed carrying them. If that's not what your post meant, no itch.

 

[oli700]

No because they are measuring overall length. Its like when you measure the overall length of an SBR you do it with the stock fully extended. When Franklin Arsenal built their OA26 they submitted it with the flash hider attached to a 10.5" barrel and they were approved that way. When they actually started building the "weapon" they added an inch to the barrel length to satisfy customers concerns about removing the flash hider even though it had been approved with the flash hider NOT permanently attached on a 10.5" barrel. The ATF has shown a clear and consistent pattern of counting overall length as fully extended. Without the SIG brace you may be under the limit. Without the flash hider you would be under the limit. I dont recall how deep the extension was under the SIG brace with the Phase 5 I got rid of mine after I SBR'd that one .

The SBR deal with 16" is different as they are not looking for OAL of a complete firearm. Precedent there is it has to be 16' of permanent barrel length by law. "Weapon" is a different category altogether with no barrel length restrictions.

Am I 100% confident. Yes. If I still had it in that that configuration I wouldnt hesitate to send my own letter into tech branch for a ruling and letter but given the precedent I don't see that one going any other way. I could almost guarantee that I would get a snide comment in there about not shouldering it though.

did some more digging

you must not count the muzzle device unless permanent, explains how to measure OAL http://johnpierceesq.com/?p=602


and it says to extend the stock out like you advised but you can slide a brace out till its hanging by a thread and make OAL really long.

all references are mentioning 10.5 barrel

the Midwest tube you put up says 10.5" barrel. Why would anyone reference the barrel length being 10.5 if you didn't need at least that to measure from a hard point as in the receiver extension....

not trying to argue or point you out as wrong but I dont think your 100% on this one

Even the Reviewers on the Midwest tube you put up reference measuring from the end of the tube to the end of the threads on a 10.5" barrel

 

[wired]

The atf approved Franklins oa26 with the 10.5" and screwed on muzzle brake. Thats really all you have to go by. All the other chatter are just peoples opinions. This isnt something with 80 years of case law and written in stone judgments from the ATF like SBR's have. The ATF approved Franklins with a screw on brake/flash hider to bring it up to 26" OAL with the buffer tube. Like I said, if I still had one in that configuration I'd submit a letter for my own personal use but I dont much see the point in AR pistols so I registered mine as SBR's so I can take them out in public.

 

[Liberty97045]

Too Loud, too big for what you get, future safe queen.

This is a want, not a need. Stop trying to justify it, admit that it is a need, if you still want it after that, go ahead.

Most likely this will be one of the things we do "for a season" then it will be fodder for the next cool thing.

 

[boogerhook]

FWIW the ATF never reversed its position on the SIG brace. The ATF said it could be used as designed if that design actually meant it was an arm brace . It never said it could be shouldered.

Respectfully disagree... in March 2014 they sent a letter that stated that shouldering the brace does not redesign the brace, then in November 2014 they reversed. They explicitly overwrote previous letters on the matter and actually removed the March letter from their public archive. Here is a more detailed discussion http://blog.princelaw.com/2014/12/2...-arbitrary-determinations-over-the-sig-brace/

 

[blackadder]

 

[Deebow]

Build it with a 12 inch barrel and KAK Shockwave brace. 12 inch barrel will help with the reliability and get the blast further from you and KAK brace is full adjustable.

Then take it out and shoot it any way you damn well please.

 

[wired]

Respectfully disagree... in March 2014 they sent a letter that stated that shouldering the brace does not redesign the brace, then in November 2014 they reversed. They explicitly overwrote previous letters on the matter and actually removed the March letter from their public archive. Here is a more detailed discussion http://blog.princelaw.com/2014/12/2...-arbitrary-determinations-over-the-sig-brace/

Then they screwed up in the first place. They do that a lot. They still issue approved form 1's for machineguns and then call and say send the stamp back. They approved the atkins accelerator then pulled the plug. Not a new thing. I cant even tell you how many 5320.20's theyve bungled of mine. They are a bureaucracy staffed by sometimes inexperienced people. Thats SIG brace thing is a buttstock. A buttstock on a short barreled gun is an SBR. Any idiot can see that. For them to issue a correction is pretty much to be expected.