Some US landowners putting barbed wire across rivers

[mkwerx]

If state and fed definitions or tests of navigability matched, it would help clarify things. Oregon's litmus test is - can a boat make successful transit down the stream at any part of the year. A kayaker can get down almost any water body 6 months out of the year. Navigability does not have to support large craft in that view.

 

[Cortes]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the main reason for fencing streams, keeping the cattle in. I grew up on a good sized cattle ranch in Oregon. The only water the cattle had to drink was from the streams, and when the water levels went down in the spring the streams had to be fenced where they entered and left the pastures. Some of the streams were large enough that you could float down them in a tube in early June.

What we did for fence was string a cable from two trees high over the stream and suspended woven wire or barbed wire across the stream with chunks of wood to weigh it down and float when the water rose.

I used to go way up the creek and float it down with friends. We'd run into many similar fences on the way down the creek. While it was a pain to have to scramble under them it was no big deal, just a fact of life in cattle country.

Now there's a lot of gov funded cost share projects to fence the cattle out of the creeks and provide alternate water sources. I think that's a good idea but do understand why some fence across the creeks. It's generally not to block access, but rather to keep the cows in.

 

[twa2471]

With out getting into a long winded conversation, no you can not put fences across any navigable waterway nor post below the high water mark of any said river/stream. That's a federal law.

This I've had to address a BUNCH of times while working with the Forest Service a few years back. I worked in law enforcement for 14 years and the only place it dosen't apply is in areas that are considered historic areas, but then only applies if ABOVE the high water mark, not below it.
The law basically says,,," If you can float a boat or anything else down it,,ie; tubes, kayaks, canoes ect, it's perfectly legal to be there", period.

I do carry a copy of that long winded statute with me when I go arrowhead picking along streams, rivers and lakes and have even been taken to court over it before by the Ft Ti Assn. in NY while arrowhead picking along the banks near the fort. They lost and had to pay me a rather large sum for lawyer, court, lost wages and travel costs in the end. I had to travel >100 miles one way for the hearings so the 3 days of hearings cost them allot in the long run by not knowing the law.

I agree that it's only common courtesy to ask first, but realize that's not always possible if your on a float trip when you have no idea who owns the adjoining lands , and if a holding pond has a navigable waterway "flowing through it", it is also open for recreation of any type as long as that activity doesn't go past the high water mark. Someone can legally camp, picnic, fish ect by law, if below the high water mark. If they leave a mess or cause problems though, you can file a law enforcement report, otherwise your kinda stuck with the law as it is, there's nothing law enforcement can do.

I'm sure this won't make some land owners happy, but it is what it is and by confronting anyone in a threatening manor, you CAN be charged federally by law for doing so.

So do be careful when doing so, you can end up in some very serious trouble if you get to aggressive approaching someone. My experience is that 99% of people you'll find on the rivers will respect your property and won't make mess's but of course there is always a few a**holes that don't care. That's when you call us or your local law enforcement, and we'll write them up.

Do realize though, many Sheriff , local or State Police departments are not very well versed on those laws and just may charge someone incorrectly causing you a legal liability for filing false charges. Call a Fish & Wildlife or Forest Service Officer to handle such cases, your much safer that way should you be having issues.

 

[twa2471]

There are some grey areas in the laws covering water. I own a small ranch with a year round stream running through it, that stream is also accessible to the other ranches for irrigation and livestock. Even though it flows right through the center of my ranch, I do not own the water per say, but I do own the water rights! In theory, any one can have access to that stream so long as they do not trespass on my property. Where things get grey is how they access that water. By law, they cannot ask or demand entry to my property, nor can they do so with any other property owners, they have to enter from ether up or down stream and must remain in the stream at all times, period! Down stream would be difficult at best, and up stream would be impossible, so it becomes a issue. Further more, I have two holding ponds, which are private, not governed by water rights or public access rights, and this has caused many issues with water rights folks who demand access and are denied! The County and State are the only folks with access by appointment! I get hikers and fly fishermen trying to access all the time, most times warning signs keep them out, but we have had a few who are ignorant of the law attempt to access my ranch Ang get trespasses and hauled off! Even though this isn' a "Navigable" water way, it is a natural resource and is governed as such. Now if some one were to enter the stream off private property, I cannot stop them, as long as they never set food on dry land, and I have the County and State on my side!

No sorry, I don't know who told you that one, but, the state and county is NOT on your side nor do they have the jurisdiction . If someone is "below the high water mark on a navigable waterway", it's perfectly legal for them to be there period. Federal law.
This is an issue I had to handle frequently in law enforcement with the Forest Service. Neither the state nor the the county have 0 say and it's a part of the navigable waterways act that covers all 50 states,,,,

well,,,,unless your "obummer" then it covers all "57 states" LOL!!!!!

 

[wired]

Just because you own land doesnt mean you own the water on the land. Water rights are real touchy subjects that city folk just don't understand. " I just want to catch the rainwater off my roof for my garden..." Blah, blah blah.

 

[Crazyeye24]

There are some grey areas in the laws covering water. I own a small ranch with a year round stream running through it, that stream is also accessible to the other ranches for irrigation and livestock. Even though it flows right through the center of my ranch, I do not own the water per say, but I do own the water rights! In theory, any one can have access to that stream so long as they do not trespass on my property. Where things get grey is how they access that water. By law, they cannot ask or demand entry to my property, nor can they do so with any other property owners, they have to enter from ether up or down stream and must remain in the stream at all times, period! Down stream would be difficult at best, and up stream would be impossible, so it becomes a issue. Further more, I have two holding ponds, which are private, not governed by water rights or public access rights, and this has caused many issues with water rights folks who demand access and are denied! The County and State are the only folks with access by appointment! I get hikers and fly fishermen trying to access all the time, most times warning signs keep them out, but we have had a few who are ignorant of the law attempt to access my ranch Ang get trespasses and hauled off! Even though this isn' a "Navigable" water way, it is a natural resource and is governed as such. Now if some one were to enter the stream off private property, I cannot stop them, as long as they never set food on dry land, and I have the County and State on my side!

I read years ago that land in Oregon is owned to the high water mark and can only be accessed by upstream/downstream or by permission.

So you're saying I can come through your property to flyfish!!!

 

[Provincial]

I read years ago that land in Oregon is owned to the high water mark and can only be accessed by upstream/downstream or by permission.

So you're saying I can come through your property to flyfish!!!

He is saying that if you walk or boat up or down the stream itself, below the high water mark, he cannot prevent that.

You cannot cross anyone's land to access any stream unless you have permission from that landowner. You must access it from a public right-of-way or public land that allows access (not all public land allows access to everyone, or anyone) and then stay in the stream below the high water mark.

 

[Who The F R U]

Had some D Bag's move in out in Vernonia try and tell me that I couldn't walk down the bank with the Kid to go swimming.

The bag in question moved from P-Town, Cali before that according to the police man. And doesn't know the law.
He called the cop's after screaming at me .I told him I had a kid and he kept yelling. I told him "go take a hike".Not really but it's a family website.

The STATE police showed up and explained high water mark to him.
Suck's for him since High water in V-no-no is about 2 feet short of his roof.
That's why his house was so cheap............
Jerk wad.

 

[Mikej]

Had some D Bag's move in out in Vernonia try and tell me that I couldn't walk down the bank with the Kid to go swimming.

The bag in question moved from P-Town, Cali before that according to the police man. And doesn't know the law.
He called the cop's after screaming at me .I told him I had a kid and he kept yelling. I told him "go take a hike".Not really but it's a family website.

The STATE police showed up and explained high water mark to him.
Suck's for him since High water in V-no-no is about 2 feet short of his roof.
That's why his house was so cheap............
Jerk wad.

It's not the "High Water Mark". It'the "Mean High Water Mark", or line. Generally just below, or at, the vegetation line.
Boundary Determination - NOAA Shoreline Website

 

[Crazyeye24]

He is saying that if you walk or boat up or down the stream itself, below the high water mark, he cannot prevent that.

You cannot cross anyone's land to access any stream unless you have permission from that landowner. You must access it from a public right-of-way or public land that allows access (not all public land allows access to everyone, or anyone) and then stay in the stream below the high water mark.

I know, it was more of a joke....guess I need to work on being funny!

 

[Flymph]

Oregon, water is a public resource and everyone has the right to utilize that resource. Access is legal up to high water mark, and stream and lake beds are publicly owned. Now if you have a lake surrounded by private property, there is no way to access that lake without permission ( think lake Oswego). If they come in on a helicopter that lands on the lake, they can do such without permission (as far as I know, but I doubt a flight plan would be approved for that)...
Most other places it's just the surface of the water and the stream or lake bed can be owned privately, so unless there is an exception to that specific waterbody, access is limited to floating on the surface (Washington is like this).

Ura-Ki has it pretty well down, as they would have to trespass to ask permission, or know him on the forum. Maybe he'll let some of us fish there if we ask nicely. @Ura-Ki how is the fishing over there?

Here's what the state brochure says...
http://www.oregon.gov/dsl/WW/Documents/nav_brochure.pdf

 

[cookie]

I would guess they are tired of people using the waterway litter the area. i used to have a 2 acre pond on the old property and I had to kick people off the property because they littered,