Some US landowners putting barbed wire across rivers

[ATCclears]

Who owns water? The US landowners putting barbed wire across rivers

I don't know what is right or wrong here. I'm posting this simply for awareness, and for those who might own land with a waterway or those considering a property purchase with a waterway.

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[IOM]

I read that same article earlier this am, I was under the impression that it was illegal to do that across rivers...

 

[DB is Here]

Gill netting is easier...poor Salmon.

 

[SOrez]

I can't see them getting away with blocking a navigable stream. I can see them stopping trespassers actually on their property.

 

[bbbass]

Oh, no!!

Not sure where this would affect OR, cept maybe the John Day River.

 

[Alex V]

I had a friend who use to do survey work for the forest service. My understanding from him was that any water way, not sure when this no longer applied, was still public land. This didn't mean that they wouldn't approach landowners first and let them know what they were trying to do and avoid the area if it was going to be a problem.

 

[Tarawa86]

I'm pretty sure it's illegal for anyone to block a navigable waterway, or to try and bar anyone from the river to the high watermark on the bank. In practice there is definitely conflict with landowners who are unaware of the waterway usage laws.

 

[Ura-Ki]

There are some grey areas in the laws covering water. I own a small ranch with a year round stream running through it, that stream is also accessible to the other ranches for irrigation and livestock. Even though it flows right through the center of my ranch, I do not own the water per say, but I do own the water rights! In theory, any one can have access to that stream so long as they do not trespass on my property. Where things get grey is how they access that water. By law, they cannot ask or demand entry to my property, nor can they do so with any other property owners, they have to enter from ether up or down stream and must remain in the stream at all times, period! Down stream would be difficult at best, and up stream would be impossible, so it becomes a issue. Further more, I have two holding ponds, which are private, not governed by water rights or public access rights, and this has caused many issues with water rights folks who demand access and are denied! The County and State are the only folks with access by appointment! I get hikers and fly fishermen trying to access all the time, most times warning signs keep them out, but we have had a few who are ignorant of the law attempt to access my ranch Ang get trespasses and hauled off! Even though this isn' a "Navigable" water way, it is a natural resource and is governed as such. Now if some one were to enter the stream off private property, I cannot stop them, as long as they never set food on dry land, and I have the County and State on my side!

 

[Tarawa86]

Now if some one were to enter the stream off private property, I cannot stop them, as long as they never set food on dry land, and I have the County and State on my side!

That is indeed the case I was thinking of in my post. The 'just passing through, have a great day' kind of situation. I'm all for respecting property rights.

 

[ma96782]

1. In Hawaii you don't own the land makai of the high water/vegetation line. Aka: beach.

BUT, But, but.....my tax map map says.

Stop right there.....the public is allowed access across the beaches. Which also means, that the shore cast fisherman standing on the beach......isn't catching "your fish." Maybe it's easier if you think of things this way........

"GOD owns the beach, ocean, and the fish in it."

But I pay taxes on that bit of land.

Whatever dude.....go ahead and go to court since you feel that strongly.

++++++

BTW......what happens when a person on the river is injured as a result of barbed wire strung across the river's path? I wonder what/how the landowner was advised by his/her lawyer?

Aloha, Mark

 

[ZigZagZeke]

Now if some one were to enter the stream off private property, I cannot stop them, as long as they never set food on dry land, and I have the County and State on my side!

I believe they would be OK if they stay below the high water mark. That's how it worked on a Corps of Engineers lake where I owned a marina. Access by boat up to the high water mark was free to the public.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

I know where there is a gate on the BLM access road, and I believe also a fence across the Deschutes upstream from Maupin. Always figured it was illegal but never had a desire to push it. Seems the adjacent property owner is a high muckety-muck in Oregon state government.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

"3. Extent of Public Rights in Navigable Rivers

Oregon owns the beds of navigable rivers. The public has the right to boat, fish, swim, etc. in these rivers up to the ordinary high water mark. The ordinary high water mark is determined by "ascertaining where the presence and action of the water are so common and usual and so long continued in all ordinary years as to mark upon the soil of a bed a characteristic mark distinct from that of the banks in respect to vegetation and the nature of the soil itself."

A question still exists as to what rights the public has in streams subject to the floatage easement only. Obviously, the public has the right to float these streams, but that may be the extent of the right. It has not been decided whether the floatage easement includes other rights incidental to boating, such as wading, fishing, portage, etc. that involve the use of a privately owned stream bed or banks. However, one older case did allow the attachment of a log boom to a privately owned island because attachment was necessary to exercise the right of driving logs on the river and the impact was minimal. The river involved in this case, the Tualatin River, was not navigable, but there was a floatage easement upon the river."

American Whitewater - Navigability Laws

And according to federal rules I have seen, a stream with a bed 30 feet wide is, by statue, a navigable waterway.

I'd say just be sure to carry some wire cutters. I can remember 60 years ago my dad cutting locks on unauthorized gates across county roads in the CA back country. More recently here in OR a relative fenced off a section of county road going through his property. It's been that way for decades now without anyone calling him on it. It happens all the time. Just because there's a fence, lock, or sign doesn't mean it's legal. Just be darn sure you know where you are and who owns what.

 

[Gaucho Gringo]

The powers to be have embraced English style gun control, so the next natural step is to do English style public lands but the dirty little secret is there is no such thing as public lands, US style. You want to hunt or fish you have three choices, be wealthy enough to own large tracts of land or have a friend who does, be a member of the aristocracy or be a member of an expensive rod and gun club. Money and power is the key. All the land is either under privater ownership, club ownership or owned by the crown. Public land ownership as in the US is as foreign to them as living on the moon. First of all you take the guns, then taking the public lands away making the hunting rational argument a moot point. In 50 years the UK will have finally have won the Revolutionary War and the people in the USA will once again be subjects again.

I hope this never happens but with each passing day we seem to be going down this path unless we wake up and fight it. Don't say it couldn't happen here a class society with very few at the top in control of everything and a huge underclass who have no rights, no hopes, no escape and no choice.

 

[The Heretic]

I read that same article earlier this am, I was under the impression that it was illegal to do that across rivers...

It is in most states, especially Oregon. In Oregon, in many rivers, landowners do not own the shorelines either (IIRC to a point where the river floods?).

If the river is "navigable" (like the Willamette) it will probably even be against federal law (just try putting a fence across the Columbia and see what happens when various agencies learn of it (especially the Coast Guard).

Also, the water in the river belongs to the state in most states - you cannot dam up the river and in many states (especially Oregon) you cannot even pull water from the river without a permit.

If I found a fence across a river like that, I would probably remove it.

I do have a small year round creek that passes thru a corner of my property, and no way would I do that - but then no one will be kayaking it either - just too small.

 

[bbbass]

My wife's family owned a property that had a small stream run thru it. Too small for kayak, but maybe some small fish. Would have been nice to put a Pelton Wheel on it. She says her dad always fought with neighbors over water rights... the guy above would close off the flow and her dad would have to go restore it. There were even shots fired a few times.

 

[bbbass]

Good times!!

 

[The Heretic]

My wife's family owned a property that had a small stream run thru it. Too small for kayak, but maybe some small fish. Would have been nice to put a Pelton Wheel on it. She says her dad always fought with neighbors over water rights... the guy above would close off the flow and her dad would have to go restore it. There were even shots fired a few times.

Oregon dept of water resources.

My father worked there for decades

 

[SIG34]

If you own the River it should be fine

 

[mkwerx]

Depends on state law - who owns the river bed/banks/water rights - it's a patch work of regulations. More states are adopting regulations like Oregon's - allowing public access so long as they don't go above high water line - but in some states it's flatly illegal to access the water on any private stretch without permission - even so much as floating.

On certain waters even in Oregon - you can float - but you cannot anchor - as the river bed is owned by the land owners. This has been run through the courts.

Running wire across a stream that is known to have boat (canoe, kayak, drift, or power boat) has to be illegal, even if from the standpoint of creating a hazard that threatens life and limb - if not explicitly called out by the law. For sure if you run wire across a stream with known traffic, you are liable for any injuries or deaths. It's one thing to do it on a stream that you can't boat down - another entirely for one that you can successfully navigate a boat down.

And @Ura-Ki - I don't think the law would state that fisherman cannot legally ask your permission, but certainly it would require them to ask before they enter your property. Of course if your property is fenced and gated, that makes it more difficult to ask - they'd have to write you a note, or somehow get your contact info and call you or ask in person if they see you out and about. And certainly as land owner you have the right to say yea or nay, but I cannot fathom the law actually stating its illegal to ask a land owner permission to access their property. And it sounds like you've got a little slice of heaven with a trout stream running through it - I'd imagine you've got at least half a dozen or a dozen guys a week that would be begging for access.