Sniper Rifles (not)

[bbbass]

Even a rifle being actively used by a qualified military sniper to kill an enemy combatant at long range is not a "sniper rifle," it is a specially designed long-range rifle being used by a sniper.

I understand your sentiments. However, you contradicted yourself when you wrote what is in bold above.

And perhaps somebody ought to tell the NRA, the American Rifleman, and the U.S. Army that they got it wrong when they designated the M24 as a SWS (Sniper Weapon System) (maybe they SHOULD have used "Sniper's Weapon System, but that wouldn't reflect that it is a specially designed rifle for snipers. Note that they don't issue these to Riflemen. I think that makes them Sniper Rifles, but that's just me.): https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/the-remington-m24-sniper-weapon-system/

If only they knew what I can do with this!
View attachment 1104512

It ain't the tool, it's the intent!

And the skills!
Under 900 meters, your dead!

That has a revolving cylinder on a rifle and therefore should be illegal!!!

This resonates with what I read in One Shot One Kill. In the late 1970s they developed a purpose built "sniper rifle" (based on a Remington 700) and sniper schools. The first schools were established by the Marines at Quantico.

Yup.

 

[bbbass]

Any rifle becomes a sniper rifle if you hand it to a sniper. Otherwise it's probably a target rifle or a hunting rifle.

Carlos Hathcock used a Win 70 to good effect. But, there ARE purpose built rifles used by military and police snipers.

 

[titsonritz]

You are wrong, there are indeed "sniper rifles". Debating the term is the epitome of a first world problem.

 

[titsonritz]

Carlos Hathcock used a Win 70 to good effect. But, there ARE purpose built rifles used by military and police snipers.

Military sniper / police marksman. There is a difference, a military sniper relies greatly on fieldcraft, a police marksman, not so much.

 

[American123]

In 1965 they used Winchester 70's bought from a Sporting Goods store. I think the difference was they made special handloads for them.


^^^This resonates with what I read in One Shot One Kill. In the late 1970s they developed a purpose built "sniper rifle" (based on a Remington 700) and sniper schools. The first schools were established by the Marines at Quantico.

Are you referring to Vietnam? I believe I've read similarly, but not specifically about ammo choice.

 

[3MTA3]

Just like the definition of "assault rifle" was changed by politicians to target rifles they didn't like, the same will be done with "sniper rifle" when they target your bolt gun.

 

[American123]

Military sniper / police marksman. There is a difference, a military sniper relies greatly on fieldcraft, a police marksman, not so much.

That's where I've always considered the difference being. Being a good marksmen is strictly about hitting a target. Being a sniper encompasses more than simply good marksmanship skills.

 

[bbbass]

Military sniper / police marksman. There is a difference, a military sniper relies greatly on fieldcraft, a police marksman, not so much.

Oh good grief. Is a "Police Marksman" that is on an emergency response team, such as SWAT or FBI, not a "Designated Sniper"? Or is he a "Designated Marksman"? Which makes more sense?

I'm not downplaying the fieldcraft used by military snipers... just saying that sniping is sniping (the act of taking the shot). So don't snipe at me, eh?

ETA: near as I can tell from an internet search, the terms for LE are interchangaable. From Sig Sauer:

Police Marksman I (Sniper)

Designed for the law enforcement sniper or designated marksman, this course focuses on developing proficiency in tactical scoped rifle marksmanship, field craft, and observation/reporting skills.

Since the vast majority of law enforcement sniper engagements take place within 100 yards, this course emphasizes extreme close range precision. Unlike other courses that require meeting an arbitrary marksmanship standard, attendees will instead be individually evaluated through an end of course live fire test to determine their optimum engagement range.

https://www.sigsaueracademy.com/productdisplay/police-marksman-i-sniper

 

[CLT65]

This reminds me of a Paul Harrell video, where he describes a hunter's ed class he once taught. He had a rifle with a scope, and a young boy looked at it with wide eyes and asked, "Is dat a SNIPEH?!!!"

Every time I read "sniper" in this thread, my mind hears "SNIPEH".

On another note, I was always surprised to learn just how accurate the various WWII era "sniper" rifles weren't. As I recall, 2 moa was considered plenty good enough for many of them. My nephew, who completed sniper school in Hawaii, said that marksmanship was just a part of being a sniper.

 

[3MTA3]

This reminds me of a Paul Harrell video, where he describes a hunter's ed class he once taught. He had a rifle with a scope, and a young boy looked at it with wide eyes and asked, "Is dat a SNIPEH?!!!"

Every time I read "sniper" in this thread, my mind hears "SNIPEH".

On another note, I was always surprised to learn just how accurate the various WWII era "sniper" rifles weren't. As I recall, 2 moa was considered plenty good enough for many of them. My nephew, who completed sniper school in Hawaii, said that marksmanship was just a part of being a sniper.

Gettin in and gettin out alive as well as properly identifying the target would be pretty high on the list..

I always figured I could get away pretty easy by leaving behind a fat suit for a tall guy and an onion skin head piece. No way they would be looking for a short fat guy with a receding hair line.

 

[Aero Denezol]

Are you referring to Vietnam? I believe I've read similarly, but not specifically about ammo choice.

Yes, if memory serves they were doing handloads for the .30-06 with (I believe) the 175 gr boat tails. I think they were doing custom ammo for each rifle. This was in the early part of Vietnam. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but that's I remember reading in Hathcock's book.

In Korea and WWII snipers were the guys who shot good scores in basic training. They would pluck them off the line, teach them to use the scope and send them on their way. The training was very brief and often done in the field.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

I just want to get this off my chest. I keep seeing references to "sniper rifles" in various gun forums (maybe not this one; hopefully not). "Sniper rifle" is not a thing, despite that the term is ubiquitous (I suspect RPG games are to blame). A rifle specially designed for accuracy, reliability, concealment, etc. at long ranges (say 1000+ yards) does not automatically make it a "sniper rifle." Even a rifle being actively used by a qualified military sniper to kill an enemy combatant at long range is not a "sniper rifle," it is a specially designed long-range rifle being used by a sniper. See the difference? People are confusing the design of a rifle with the role of the person using it. Depending on its weight, the same rifle may be used for match shooting, varminting, big game hunting, whatever and it does not magically change from a "sniper rifle" in one context to a "hunting rifle" in the other. Okay, done with this rant, but had to get it off my chest...

Agreed 1000%! Does anyone think that after they have succeeded in maligning and outlawing "assault rifles" the next step won't be "sniper rifles"? I can see it already, the list of "features" that make your deer rifle a "sniper rifle": Locking bolt (more accurate), center fire (higher power), optics (more accurate), bolt action or single shot (more accurate), bi-pod (more accurate), "special" rifling (more accurate), heavy barrel (more accurate), muzzle brake (reduced recoil, hides flash), high combed stock (more accurate, easier to use prone), camouflage finish (easier to hide), etc., etc.

I'd suggest we all refuse to use the term "sniper rifle" so that it doesn't become a standard way to refer to another class of firearms the gun grabbers can tell lies about.

 

[Ruger Rich]

I can see your point of view, and I certainly understand where your coming from, so I get it!
I agree the term gets tossed around a lot, probably more then it should, BUT, I think you are ether forgetting something important here, or simply were not aware of it!
As a former service member, some times I filled the roll of Designated Marksman, went through several of the "Sniper Training courses" and deployed numerous times in that capacity. That said, there are in fact, actual Sniper Rifles, tools designed for the express purpose of hunting humans where ever there is a need, usually beyond the expected range of a fighting rifle and the rifleman who wields it! These rifles are built to far tighter tolerances, using very precise tools and equipment, by highly skilled armorers, and then hand fitted to the very unique specifics of the shooter. In this, these rifles are far and beyond any hunting, or target rifle you will ever find, though some are more then capable of matching the range and accuracy, it's also about HOW these rifles are used, as you said, quite different, by a highly trained Sniper. There has been a renaissance of sorts, since the early 1990's folks have sought to emulate the rifles and skills practiced by our men in uniform, and in that, some very good rifles and equipment have become available to the civilian shooting enthusiast, so much so, that it's often very hard to tell any difference between a full custom $16,000 Sako TRG with armorers support, and the off the shelf TRG you can run out and buy for $4000 ( Not including optic, ammo, and accessories) and be out shootin the same afternoon!! You can buy a Remington M-40 clone that is for all intents and purposes, an exact copy of the U.S. Military M-40X, for about 1/4 the price, and very few could tell the difference in performance, until you hand it to an actual sniper!

The point is, there IS such a thing as a Sniper Rifle, and while the term gets tossed about a lot, usually by the uninformed, it none the less does describe an actual tool, rather then a host of similar looking and feeling tools that are NOT!

Keep in mind, throughout the U.S. Military's history, Sniping and Snipers have always been looked down upon, they never had been truly embraced as a legitimate fighting force or skill set, often seen as an ugly necessity instead, to be used only when needed, and quickly forgotten and never mentioned after. In the U.S. formal Sniper Training was a very limited sub-set of training, usually done outside regular training evolutions and kept to the minimum, and when war came, used rarely until it became a necessity, and soon forgotten when the fighting stopped! That all changed in the 90's with the first Gulf War, and our ongoing war on terror, the U.S. Military was faced with a whole host of new challenges on the modern battlefield, and only a trained sniper could address those challenges, so training, ( And the publicity, public acceptance of) has ramped up markedly, and while some still take a very dim view of this unique method of fighting, it has become far more mainstream within the services and far more accepted, and even critical to any future war fighting!
The U.S. Sniper is here to stay, and that's a good thing! And like most things American, has really been embraced tightly and taken to whole new levels of range and accuracy, something both civilian and military can benefit from!

What a very positive and informative mouthful. Thanks . . . . .

 

[slimmer13]

Carlos Hathcock used a Win 70 to good effect. But, there ARE purpose built rifles used by military and police snipers.

I suppose. Even though they are mostly indistinguishable from the civilian versions.

 

[Ura-Ki]

Yes, if memory serves they were doing handloads for the .30-06 with (I believe) the 175 gr boat tails. I think they were doing custom ammo for each rifle. This was in the early part of Vietnam. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but that's I remember reading in Hathcock's book.

In Korea and WWII snipers were the guys who shot good scores in basic training. They would pluck them off the line, teach them to use the scope and send them on their way. The training was very brief and often done in the field.

You are correct. My first Issue rifle was a Winchester M-70 in .30/06 and we had the choice, factory (Machine Gun in links) loaded ammo with 165 grain, or we could sit at the loading bench and work up loads using what ever FMJ bullets we could get our hands on, settling on a Burger 185 solid ( for my rifle)
Some of the other guys had hand built 1903's with the mag cut off welded up, and they hand loaded as well! Around 1990 we got our first M-21's, left overs from Nam, complete with ether Shepard Optics or Leatherwood ART-II auto ranging optics, and again, we had to hand load if we wanted to push past standard Machine gun range and accuracy potential! some where in 93, we got the first Remington M-40's in .300 Win Mag, and I was hooked, we also got our first factory custom loads which were nearly impossible to beat with hand loading, so we kinda stopped. Around that time, the Marines and Army had started to adopt the .338 Lapua mag into their systems, and we got our hands on a couple of them ( borrowed) and in short order, Remington started shipping hand fitted bolt bodies and receivers, these were built to the same specs as the M-40X but in a "Super Magnum" size, basically a .416 Rigby action super sized a little bit, they were also double square receivers, designed to adapt to what ever optic mounting system we decided to run with! All the high end Euro rifles were still a ways away, and even when they became available, most of us preferred our American Made, Hand fitted rifles! Right off the bat, the .338 had to be hand loaded, there was no factory ammo yet, and everyone was still sorting out the rifle/caliber specs, eventually settling on what we called the holy trinity, 30 inch barrel, 1/9 twist, running a 300 grain solid @3000 FPS! Once dialed in with the new Nightforce or Schmidt and Bender optics, we were rollin! Very few were built and used, many of the other guys preferred the high speed/low drag of the newer M-24's or the high speed of the M-21's, but Besides my M-40, I chose to keep the M-40 Super X .338! We had contracts with several composite stock makers, Harris and McMillion were the two biggest, but There were a couple of smaller shops that could handle a small batch of customs for us, so that's how we ended up with some of our Laminates, the .338 really hurt you with a composite, you really needed the weight/mass of a laminate, and because the wood is dead, it was a little easier to use in the rough and tumble we were always getting into! The Big .50 BMG rifles were not much use to us, we had a few issued, but nobody wanted to lug one around, so we usually left one in one of our birds with a hand full of ammo, and forgot it was there! There were a few times it might have been nice to have, but ultimately, you worked the problem with what you had, and for all of us, the big .50 just wasn't used very often, though we did have one guy who really liked his and would pack it along when ever he got rotated outside the wire, he was pretty damn good with it too, so none of us gave him any crap for packin that monster along!


Sorry for the drift, just remembering fun times!

 

[titsonritz]

Agreed 1000%! Does anyone think that after they have succeeded in maligning and outlawing "assault rifles" the next step won't be "sniper rifles"? I can see it already, the list of "features" that make your deer rifle a "sniper rifle": Locking bolt (more accurate), center fire (higher power), optics (more accurate), bolt action or single shot (more accurate), bi-pod (more accurate), "special" rifling (more accurate), heavy barrel (more accurate), muzzle brake (reduced recoil, hides flash), high combed stock (more accurate, easier to use prone), camouflage finish (easier to hide), etc., etc.

I'd suggest we all refuse to use the term "sniper rifle" so that it doesn't become a standard way to refer to another class of firearms the gun grabbers can tell lies about.

Do you honestly believe it makes an iota of difference?

 

[ZigZagZeke]

Do you honestly believe it makes an iota of difference?

Yes, words control the dialog.

 

[titsonritz]

Yes, words control the dialog.

Gun grabbers are going to try to gragguns regardless of words. Facts don't matter and the fact is guns like the Barret MRAD, Accuracy International AW/AX and Sako TRG were built from the ground up to be sniper rifles.

 

[Ura-Ki]

Yes, words control the dialog.

Don't you mean "Feelings, Emotions?"

 

[tac]

This is definitely NOT a sniping rifle -