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Several of my first rounds hangfired...

Discussion in 'Ammunition & Reloading' started by kibs45, Jan 3, 2011.

  1. kibs45

    kibs45 Portland Active Member

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    Some of you may remember I had some issues with OAL with my rounds initially, but I got all that sorted out. I finally made some rounds, and had some fairly bad results. I was using 175 grain round nose Hornady Interlock in 7mm Remington Magnum, with new Hornady Brass, CCI large rifle primers, and Reloder 22 powder. Per the load sheet I was at the minimum charge for this setup. I was getting a noticeable delay between the firing pin hitting the primer and the bullet discharging, no more than half a second. Every round fired with the exception of one, total dud. So it seems I have done something incorrectly. What would give me this kind of delay? Mishandling of the primer, incorrect primer, too little powder, incorrect powder, too much bullet in the casing to achieve OAL (I ended up with a OAL of 3.215), not enough room between the lands and the bullet? I sincerely appreciate all your thoughts and recommendations! I have a feeling after doing a little reading that I might need to bump up the grains of powder and possibly switch to a magnum primer. I tried four rounds of factory ammo (Speer), in the 150 grain range and it fired with no delay, and noticeably more kickback, I highly doubt there is a problem with the rifle.
     
  2. deadeye

    deadeye Albany,OR. Moderator Staff Member

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    That load should have MAGNUM primers.
     
  3. kibs45

    kibs45 Portland Active Member

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    Thanks again deadeye!
     
  4. RVTECH

    RVTECH LaPine Well-Known Member

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    I did not look at the data for your load but you mentioned it was minimum for the setup. Some cartridges (especially the larger cased, high velocity) do not do well with the 'minimum' loads shown in reloading data. While no doubt safe the case is just not full enough to provide proper combustion of the faster powders used for the lighter loads and can exhibit the 'hangfire' condition you described. I would recommend rethinking your load for this and 'bumping' up to one of the next two or three slower powders as recommended on the higher level of the reloading data matrix your are using and then start with the minimum charge weight for that powder. The proper magnum primer as previously recommended may help but this could be just too light of a charge for your rifle. The consistency of your hangfires suggests this.
     
  5. toolfan

    toolfan North Portland Member

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    It's probably something simple, like failing to fully seat your primers.

    If you have any remaining rounds from your loading session, I would check that.
     
  6. Throckmorton

    Throckmorton Florence,Ore ah gone Well-Known Member

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    Any chance some polishing media got left in the cases? I tap mine several times to shake ALL the media out,bottle necked cases especialy.
     
  7. RVTECH

    RVTECH LaPine Well-Known Member

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    I would pull a round if you have any left and check the charge weight of the powder. Improper measure settings or improperly set scales happen more often than you think. And you really should be hand weighing each charge for the 7mm mag for optimum accuracy and safety.
     
  8. rodell

    rodell Newcastle, WA Active Member

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    As has been pointed out, this is a magnum primer load.

    What was your charge? Hornady 8th shows a range of 50.1 to 59.5 grains for RL-22 and the OAL as listed for the 175 grain roundnose (#2855) is 3.280". What drove you to the shorter length?

    Is the powder new and/or uncontaminated?

    How did you crimp? Are you in the cannelure? Is it tight?

    Did the hang fire rounds have unburnt powder in the case?

    I suspect it may be a combination of things, let's look at each one individually. The good news is your problem is consistent, so the process is under some control.

    Based on your recoil observation, it is most likely under charged or under ignited.
     
  9. Spitpatch

    Spitpatch Forest Grove, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    While others have taken the shotgun approach, considering somewhat peripheral items like seating depth, primer seating, etc., I would focus solely on the powder charge. Winnebagowizard is in agreement, it seems.

    The 7mm Rem is a big case. A "light" charge could easily sit in the bottom of the case (horizontally), and not get exposure to primer blast necessary for ignition. This is actually an unsafe situation. "Reduced loads" are frequently mentioned as a cause of blowing up guns in large capacity/high intensity cartridges. (.25-06 shooters are well aware to avoid reduced loads as a result of all the literature on this, and it even shows up in some introductory paragraphs for that cartridge in loading manuals).

    I would immediately go to a high-range load (not max, but close), and see if the problem resolves itself. Alternately, if you are a gambler, you can stay with your light load, and diagnose the "light charge/partial primer exposure" theory, by turning the rifle vertical, tapping the butt on the ground with a loaded cartridge in the chamber, then gently restoring it to horizontal on the bench before firing. This to get all your light load to the primer. (I guess I have to say watch the muzzle, and safety on, don't I?)

    I cannot fathom the reasoning behind those who would believe seating depth and other items like "crimping" would cause this. Throckmorton admirably went with the "something simple and stupid" theory when things suddenly malfunction, and assumed you had polished cases in media that might block a primer flash. This is a possiblility. A good one, but with the repeated misfires, I believe unlikely.

    As to "magnum primers" (or the absence of), I think that unlikely as well. Agreed: large doses of slow powder can most often be better ignited by a hotter primer. But a milder primer would not result in complete failure to ignite repeatedly, and usually the "benefits" of a magnum primer can only be measured on a chronograph. (Velocity increase and consistency).

    If your gun fires factory loads without a hitch, and your light loads occasionally and repeatedly fail to fire, I believe your powder is not properly exposed to the primer as a result of space in the case.
     
  10. rodell

    rodell Newcastle, WA Active Member

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    Rather than a shotgun approach, I outlined things like "crimping" that could contribute. The OP has to investigate.

    I can definitely create a situation with a cold primer, low charge and lousy (like none) crimp creates incomplete combustion and very low velocity. Also, unless you are working up a load you are a test pilot if you aren't using at least the minimum specified load (not provided in the OP) and components in the same class as specified by the recipe.

    All of the things mentioned are "simple". Kibs has been learning the process, so, all of these are valid questions, don't you think?

    I agree with you the likely culprit is undercharged or underexposed. I wouldn't go to a max charge until I was sure the scale is right. An inconsistent (binding?) scale could go the other way as you approach the 60 grain max!
     
  11. Spitpatch

    Spitpatch Forest Grove, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Apparently, my use of the term "shotgun approach" was taken differently than what was intended. For that, I apologize.

    I was surprised to see "crimping" offered as a possible cause, since the 7mm Magnum requires absolutely no crimp to function perfectly, just as almost any bottleneck cartridge in a bolt gun. I am NOT saying crimping has no effect on ignition. I AM saying that it is completely unecessary for this cartridge, and I cannot understand how the presence, absence, or inadequacy of a crimp could have created the problem described.

    Before a riot erupts amongst those with tools in hand just chomping at the bit to crimp something, I CAN imagine a scenario where crimping 7mm Mag cartridges might be advisable (NOT necessary). If I were on a long hunt, where for days I would carry the same cartridges in the magazine, firing the gun every so often, and loading only a fresh cartridge on top of the others after firing, a crimp might serve mechanically to keep my bullets in the magazine from "walking" back into the cases as a result of recoil. As anyone can see, this is an extremely hypothetical and extrapolated scenario---the rare exception.

    The lack of need for crimp on this cartridge and other bottleneck rifle cartridges intended for bolt guns is evidenced strongly in that the vast majority of bullets offered to handloaders for these cartridges have no cannelure. Crimping for these cartridges amongst experienced handloaders is rare. Worshippers at the altar of crimping are uncomfortable with this, and sometimes will actuallly damage perfectly good bullets by crimping one without a cannelure. More devoted disciples will actually insert their unwilling sleek-sided bullets into torture chambers to force a cannelure upon them.

    My visit to this church is limited to those instances where crimping is necessary, and actually does have a favorable effect on ignition: straight walled pistol cases, and loading for my Sharps rifles (blackpowder and lead). Crimps also are necessary (in a mechanical sense, not an ignition sense) for tube-fed guns.
     
  12. rodell

    rodell Newcastle, WA Active Member

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    I'm not offended; I just want to help and educate and inform. The 7mm Mag is a fairly high velocity cartridge. You certainly don't want a "loose" bullet, either from an ignition or a mechanical standpoint. One should definitely never roll crimp into a bullet without a cannelure!

    If the sizing is right, all should be ok.

    I'm still interested to hear what the original charge is/was. It seems like 50 grains should not be too little.
     
  13. DAB

    DAB ydnaS nogerO New Member

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  14. kibs45

    kibs45 Portland Active Member

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    I apologize about my absence, I havn't had a chance to explore further. My next trip to the range I will take my supplies and see if I can re-create the problem. I don't know how possible it will be when I went out last time it was about 25 degrees. I have bought magnum primers, and will experiment with a hotter charge. I rally value all the insight!
     
  15. turq

    turq Molino,oregon Member

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    My 1996 Alliant Guide says 61.3gr MAX and start 10% less OR 55.2gr start. Not less my opinion.
    The guide also says mag primers are most often not needed.
    But in my experience slow powders like the old W785 needed mag primers and reduced loads were a definite NO.
    If you loaded a RE-22 load of 56gr. up to 61gr. with the 175gr bullet you should not get that hang fire.
    If you do... I'd throw out those primers and check everything. Twice. Good Luck
     
  16. DAB

    DAB ydnaS nogerO New Member

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    I personally would not try to re-create the problem. I would make sure that the load is done properly. Mag. primer seated properly, powder of correct charge, bullet seated to the proper length. I would seat the bullet per what the manual says for a few rounds to make sure that they all are firing properly.

    DAB
     
  17. Spitpatch

    Spitpatch Forest Grove, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    DAB to the rescue! (I too tried to discourage, but used more diplomatic terms, such as "if you are a gambler" : to diagnose the problem, not necessarily re-create it.) I guess some of us earthworms in the two-way maze learn a bit faster to turn away from the electric shock and take a different path.
     
  18. moose

    moose northwet coast Well-Known Member

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    For what its worth, I 'created' the same situation in some 300 RUM loads I made using standard, not magnum primers. Quite the noticable delay between pulling the trigger and the bang. I think I made 10 rounds like that and ended up pulling half of them apart.
     
  19. turq

    turq Molino,oregon Member

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    Make sure you're not crushing the primers when seating them also.
     
  20. Shooter98

    Shooter98 McMinnville, Or. Member

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    In my experience, I have experienced hangfires only when I was rushing through reloading and dropped powder into cases that weren't fully dry after their cleaning. Now I put all my cases through a meat dehydrater for 2 hours before loading. I haven't had a problem since. Just my experience though.