First ladder test

[Koda]

Loading for a new cartridge you look up published load data and there is a min and max charge weight. Is there any compelling reason to always start at the very bottom for a cartridge you havent reloaded for yet?



Just for fun a pic of a fly messing with my charge last weekend....

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[Local Loader]

Personally I don't start at the bottom of the chart. I either start in the middle or near the max depending on what I'm loading for. If I'm doing defensive rounds I go for higher pressure to give a harder hit(more kinetic force on impact). If it's target rounds I go for the best FPS I can get out of the powder I'm using. For hunting I try to get a good balance of the two, high pressure plus high speed.

 

[Koda]

Personally I don't start at the bottom of the chart. I either start in the middle or near the max depending on what I'm loading for. If I'm doing defensive rounds I go for higher pressure to give a harder hit(more kinetic force on impact). If it's target rounds I go for the best FPS I can get out of the powder I'm using. For hunting I try to get a good balance of the two, high pressure plus high speed.

Ive only loaded for two rifle calibers and started at the bottom to cautiously work up. It made sense being brand new to reloading but both cases it seemed like a waste of time and components to start that low to end up with a recipe in the upper end. Im loading for hunting so I do want to maximize my velocity, safely of course. But it seems like I could safely start in the middle and save time with a finer tuned first ladder test.

 

[Local Loader]

Ive only loaded for two rifle calibers and started at the bottom to cautiously work up. It made sense being brand new to reloading but both cases it seemed like a waste of time and components to start that low to end up with a recipe in the upper end. Im loading for hunting so I do want to maximize my velocity, safely of course. But it seems like I could safely start in the middle and save time with a finer tuned first ladder test.

For hunting I started at the about 200-300fps below max for listed powders. Its worked out well for me and I get good grouping at about 62-66gr (64.8-67.9gr max listed) per round for 300WM with various bullet weights.

 

[Pepe-lepew]

Working a load up is starting low charge weights and working up higher looking for over pressure signs while sometimes checking for accuracy.
A ladder test is shooting progressively increasing charge weights while using the same aiming point. Then analyzing the target.

 

[po18guy]

The rule is start 10% below max and work up.
The lower loads are minimum reasonable (target, functioning etc.) with that powder and bullet weight. Max is easily figured out, as pressures are often listed.

 

[Koda]

Working a load up is starting low charge weights and working up higher looking for over pressure signs while sometimes checking for accuracy.
A ladder test is shooting progressively increasing charge weights while using the same aiming point. Then analyzing the target.

are the two individually different processes?

 

[Koda]

Max is easily figured out, as pressures are often listed.

I havent figured out yet what to do with listed pressures. How do I apply listed pressures to my individual rifle and handload?

 

[Pepe-lepew]

are the two individually different processes?you could do it at the same time.

The results you are looking for are different. They can be done at the same time or separately.

The ladder test you are looking for a node in the barrel harmonics where bullet impact vertically is the same across a range of charge weights. Ideally you find a large node which will indicate a load centered in that range is not sensitive to powder charge weight. I like it if the node is big enough. Then I can skip weighing charges and just drop charges directly in the case from the powder measure.

 

[Koda]

The results you are looking for are different. They can be done at the same time or separately.

The ladder test you are looking for a node in the barrel harmonics where bullet impact vertically is the same across a range of charge weights. Ideally you find a large node which will indicate a load centered in that range is not sensitive to powder charge weight. I like it if the node is big enough. Then I can skip weighing charges and just drop charges directly in the case from the powder measure.

Ive read about different ladder tests to find this node but found them confusing for a new handloader but as Ive just dove in Ive found that a ladder checking for accuracy as I work my way up the charge weight I find a group that shoots best and home in on that charge weight center with a second but finer ladder test, and thats been working for me.

 

[drstrangelove]

The rule is start 10% below max and work up.
The lower loads are minimum reasonable (target, functioning etc.) with that powder and bullet weight. Max is easily figured out, as pressures are often listed.

I think 10% is reasonable for higher compression cartridges (bottle neck rifle). My learning by experience point started at the bottom of the ladder for 30-30 with leverevolution powder and it locked up my lever on the first shot. Yes I took a second; same result, then quit and pulled bullets. I reserve LR powder now for alternate caliber uses now.
Where 10% is unreasonable is risking squibs and failures to cycle with low pressure semiautomatic pistol cartridges ie 45acp and 38spl.
Most important to pay attention to lead vs jacketed pistol data; there is a LOT of charge difference. Plated will have as much friction as jacketed, and should follow jacketed data. Hi-tec powder coated should follow bare lead data.
Higher pressure pistol ie 10mm, 357sig... that's worth playing it safe.
Watch for primer flattening. I have a buddy I taught to read primers last week... most of his donation pile were flattened; I ask who the hell loaded these... his buddy. I told him not to shoot with that guy anymore.

 

[Koda]

I think 10% is reasonable for higher compression cartridges (bottle neck rifle). My learning by experience point started at the bottom of the ladder for 30-30 with leverevolution powder and it locked up my lever on the first shot.

well this is interesting as the new caliber im handloading for in my 30-30 lever gun with leverevolution powder. Maybe I should start at the very bottom?

 

[po18guy]

I havent figured out yet what to do with listed pressures. How do I apply listed pressures to my individual rifle and handload?

They are listed as a cautionary measure for those seeking max performance. Functionally, all you need is for the bullet to exit the muzzle, but we are seeking more than that. More performance and/or more accuracy. Accuracy loads are almost always below max pressure - just some law of physics at play.

You can compare the max pressures for a given load to the SAAMI max pressures for the cartridge you are loading. Some powders will not reach max pressure in certain cartridges as case capacity is too small for that powder. That is often a sign that other powders will work better in that cartridge.

Yet again, many loads which appear rather lackluster will be far more accurate - I imagine it's like a car or motorcycle engine has a "happy" RPM range where everything just works in harmony. As long as a semi-auto functions reliably, it is a "good" load. Most accurate or powerful? Only a target and a chronograph know that answer.

 

[drstrangelove]

well this is interesting as the new caliber im handloading for in my 30-30 lever gun with leverevolution powder. Maybe I should start at the very bottom?

May I not so gently recommend you either DON'T, or go 20% under bottom of Hodgon ladder to start. LR powder IMO is a vicious, nasty, overpowerful powder that will wear out a lever gun well before it's time. There is a very popular gunsmith on this website who is a good friend of mine who entirely agrees with my sentiment.

 

[Koda]

May I not so gently recommend you either DON'T, or go 20% under bottom of Hodgon ladder to start.

isnt there some sort of danger going below the minimum charge weight?
Ive always assumed there is a reason there is a min as much as there is a max...

 

[Koda]

May I not so gently recommend you either DON'T, or go 20% under bottom of Hodgon ladder to start. LR powder IMO is a vicious, nasty, overpowerful powder that will wear out a lever gun well before it's time. There is a very popular gunsmith on this website who is a good friend of mine who entirely agrees with my sentiment.

interesting, that powder gets rave reviews for those reloading the 3030....
so I got some, and it cost me a lot. Im kinda stuck with it....

(if its the same gunsmith he has my other rifle and Im very excited how that will turn out but suspect it wont be ready for deer season so.... )

 

[drstrangelove]

isnt there some sort of danger going below the minimum charge weight?
Ive always assumed there is a reason there is a min as much as there is a max...

The main risk is that of air detonation, where the dieseling effect of compressed air overcharges the case; I don't care to play that game either, which is why I would recommend an alternate powder; another option would be to fill the remaining empty space in the case to the bullet base with enough corn meal to get a mildly compressed load. That's an old timer's solution to the problem. I've never done it and don't want to be the one to say it's OK.

 

[Koda]

The main risk is that of air detonation, where the dieseling effect of compressed air overcharges the case; I don't care to play that game either, which is why I would recommend an alternate powder; another option would be to fill the remaining empty space in the case to the bullet base with enough corn meal to get a mildly compressed load. That's an old timer's solution to the problem. I've never done it and don't want to be the one to say it's OK.

I don't think I'm experienced enough to play with chemistry like that...
I have load data from my bullet mfg ,but thats it. Maybe I will look around the web for reloaders using leverevolution and see if others have similar cautions with this powder.

 

[Local Loader]

The main risk is that of air detonation, where the dieseling effect of compressed air overcharges the case; I don't care to play that game either, which is why I would recommend an alternate powder; another option would be to fill the remaining empty space in the case to the bullet base with enough corn meal to get a mildly compressed load. That's an old timer's solution to the problem. I've never done it and don't want to be the one to say it's OK.

In regards to that I believe that is what gas checks are for if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Local Loader]

I don't think I'm experienced enough to play with chemistry like that...
I have load data from my bullet mfg ,but thats it. Maybe I will look around the web for reloaders using leverevolution and see if others have similar cautions with this powder.

What is the bullet weight and type you are using?